The reason why XP penalty exists and why it's not for everyone

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

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Orion_3T#9801 wrote:

I don't know what you are talking about. I do want to be able to play challenging content. This system forces you not to be able to do that for the vast majority of the time. Elden Ring and other Souls-Likes does not give that same feeling, they are very different games.

I like challenging games. I platinumed Sekiro which is way more difficult than Elden Ring. Elden Ring is just bigger and you can actually level up in the traditional sense. I'm not including the DLC as I don't have it, so can't comment there.

But again just like in Sekiro or Elden Ring if you play in Softcore you can simply level up first before you try the really super-juiced maps or Arbiter of Ash, the strategy is the same. Grind first so you level up and lose nothing on death.

Sounds like you haven't played Sekiro as there are no levels in that game. You can explore elsewhere and maybe unlock some new skills but you can't really just grind out new levels that improve your stats (health, damage etc) like you can in other souls-likes. Those upgrades are all locked behind items which are probably behind the boss you are trying to kill. But yes, you could spend your currency (IDR what it's called after all this time) before trying a boss. Or not, and just pick them up. There's agency there that doesn't force you to go grind in fact it encourages you to keep trying.

The window during which you can play hard content in POE2 becomes tiny - you do maybe 2 exciting maps and if successful then you're back into XP loss territory again. The fraction you can spend doing fun stuff is very small.

In souls-likes the window is basically all the time because you can nearly always go pick up your dropped souls. Which is a core mechanic of the genre. Possibly the defining mechanic.

I just don't see the games the same way, I don't think they are a good comparison. For reasons already stated.

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- Backload XP onto map completion instead of it all coming from killing monsters.
- Give an increasing XP bonus for completing consecutive maps without dying.
- Only take away the XP earned on that map.
- Adjust the XP curve in conjunction with other changes to maintain a similar length of journey.

Not so sure about the first one because it encourages skipping monsters instead of killing them. Other than that while those are neat suggestions, it would also mean further XP nerfs so that consecutive map completions would be the only way to effectively gain XP. I'm not sure if having extremely slow XP progression would be a good compensation.

You can't skip the monsters if killing them is the objective. You already can't skip the rares, they could easily also include killing say 80% of the mobs as well. But I'm not saying they shouldn't give anything. And if you don't kill them you are also missing out on loot.

But there's lots of sliders that could be adjusted there.

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Any or all of these would be better than a system where you can go backwards through no fault of your own. A system which actually forces you to play easier content than was previously fun and worthwhile, because the XP loss increases exponentially but player power might not through bad RNG.

Thing is you're not supposed to rush into the high tier maps immediatly.

I have not said anything about running high tier maps. I am referring to a situation that could occur anywhere from T1 to T15.

Let's say you are just into mapping around level 68ish and are happily clearing T1 maps dying occasionally. You level up 4 times without any meaningful upgrades due to bad RNG, so you haven't got much stronger and still have approximately the same survivability. Those passive points help a bit but not nearly enough to offset the fact you are now getting about 1/4 of the XP for the same maps and losing 10% on death.

Your only option at that point is to lower map tiers or even go back to the campaign. When you were previously having fun and progressing just fine.

That is terrible design and not fun for the player.

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That was actually a common balance problem with PoE-beta pre-map system where people ignored the lower levels to immediatly rush into higher ones, then complained they couldn't complete it or it was too hard. The whole mapping system is designed around slowing player progress down so they would spend more time in lower tier maps if their builds are not ready for higher tier ones. Same goes for XP penalty.

I am not talking about rushing to high tiers. I'm talking about staying on the same tier that was previously enjoyable and giving reasonable progress. I am not talking about some attempt to speedrun a meta build to 100, rather someone having fun playing the game with a build they have figured out for themselves. It only needs to fall slightly behind the power curve and the experience degenerates very quickly, the player feels like they are going backwards.

You can say they should go and improve their build but they are already trying to do that. The issue is the experience is spoiled by this archaic mechanic.

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It is a common practice in Hardcore to grind for XP in certain map level tresholds like minimum 15 levels below your character for maximum safety. If its the XP you worry about, then thats the strategy of doing it.

I understand that and for people who enjoy that experience, there is Hardcore. But if the only strategy being suggested as a solution is boring as hell, it's not a good solution. Better to fix the bad game mechanic forcing everyone to do that so the gameplay can be fun again.

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Generally GGG does not want you to reach level 100 easily so you should keep that in mind when you're playing.

Jonathan said he thinks the penalty needs to be there to make the race interesting because it forces people to think about defenses. And I agree it does achieve that, but at great and unnecessary expense to the majority of players when there are better ways to achieve the same goal. Firstly, the vast majority don't care about racing. Secondly, there are other ways to make death count that don't involve kicking those who stumble while they are down.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

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ogmersault#4806 wrote:

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Yep, it just encourages people to play it safe and that makes the game boooooooooooooooooring.

It sounds like you find playing safe boring. That’s also optional.

Yeah and then you die and lose hours of your exp for no reason. People don't want to have their time deleted lol how is this so hard to understand? Exp loss is outdated and doesn't belong in a game in the year 2025. Especially not in Softcore.

But your not making any sense? how are you having your time deleted?

Im gonna give you the benefit of doubt and assume that youve managed to reach lvl 90 since its basicly free.

At this point exp basicly doesnt matter, so your probably spending your time doing something else, farming currency, breachstone. So if you die your time isnt deleted cause youve still gotten the things you wanted.

There is no reason you have to get lvl 100, and it also gives you almost nothing. Its an optional challenge for those that like to grind to lvl 100.
And if you dont like it then dont do it.

Your complaining that you dont like to do content thats optional.

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ogmersault#4806 wrote:

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R3kt3m#0050 wrote:

Look at how getting to 100 is done in POE1. Mostly from running 5ways with aura stackers so your chance of dying is reduced to zero or from running white T15s with zero chance of dying. That's it, that is how the vast majority of players go to 100.

So what is even the point for it in POE2? You will get to 100 by running strats that will eliminate all chance of dying, just like POE1.

If that is what it takes for people to "race" to 100, then you might as well just cut out the XP penalty and let people do whatever... It's meaningless

Struggling players in any game will look for carry services, or any easy way they can to shore up their inability to adapt to something. In wow all you have to do to reach max level is play the game, and people still pay for boosts.

Its not "struggling players", stop blaming players for bad game design. It's the game's fault 100% that people have to resort to carry services. People already doing trial carries non-stop in TFT because they're so badly designed and everyone just has to buy a carry for it lmao

People buy breachstone runs or 5-way rotas cus grinding levels is cringe with exp loss. Why risk wasting hours of their time if they die when they can get what they want with 0% risk? This is a failure of game design and nothing else.

If lvl100 was actually fun to grind(imagine, a game being fun) instead of it being this stressful anxiety-filled vigilance because 1 death at lvl99 is who knows how many hours, maybe people would actually not buy as many exp carries.

And lvl100 was actually achievable for more casual players in exactly 1 league, when they reworked scarabs and put in the 30% exp per shrine buff one in the game. You could do 30 breach+shrine maps at lvl99 and reach 100. But guess what? GGG deleted those for literally no reason the very next league. They were not OP, nobody asked for the scarabs to be removed. I guess truly no fun is allowed in this game.

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Nyon#6673 wrote:

There is no reason you have to get lvl 100, and it also gives you almost nothing.

If there is no reason to go 100, why exp penalty is in game?
To annoy ppl an make them NOT BUY any support pack?

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Nyon#6673 wrote:

But your not making any sense? how are you having your time deleted?

Im gonna give you the benefit of doubt and assume that youve managed to reach lvl 90 since its basicly free.

At this point exp basicly doesnt matter, so your probably spending your time doing something else, farming currency, breachstone. So if you die your time isnt deleted cause youve still gotten the things you wanted.

There is no reason you have to get lvl 100, and it also gives you almost nothing. Its an optional challenge for those that like to grind to lvl 100.
And if you dont like it then dont do it.

Your complaining that you dont like to do content thats optional.

Stop trying to gaslight me.

Yes my time absolutely gets deleted every time I die and lose 10% exp. This is a fact. And just calling something "optional" isn't an excuse for bad game design.

And stop with your fixation on lvl100 this lvl100 that people don't care about this they just wanna level at their own pace without having their time completely wasted by the game.

And there is a reason to eventually passively get lvl100, its more base hp and mana and a few extra skill points. Stop gatekeeping lvl100 as if its some grand achievement, its not. It never will be. And this game will never be an e-sport either. Nobody cares about the "race to lvl100" lmao

XP penalties are a part of the game’s core design, sure, but when the loot flood makes it impossible to keep track of what’s worth grabbing and what’s just filler, the XP loss feels even more punishing. How can anyone focus on leveling when you’re basically forced into endless inventory management just to stay afloat? Give us a loot filter and let us actually play instead of sorting junk.

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Elua#0230 wrote:

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Nyon#6673 wrote:

There is no reason you have to get lvl 100, and it also gives you almost nothing.

If there is no reason to go 100, why exp penalty is in game?
To annoy ppl an make them NOT BUY any support pack?

What are you even on about?

The game isnt balanced around you having to be lvl 100.
So your not gatekept out of any content. Your character peaks at lvl 90.

Grinding from 90-100 is an extreme min-maxing of your character and its there for those few who like to do the grind, and the exp penalty needs to be there for it to be an achievement.

Just like the game isnt balanced around you having perfect rolls on all your gear, but if you want to spend hundreds of hours on trying to craft the perfet weapon or shield or whatever, you can do it. If you dont like it you dont have to.

What your doing is the equivelant of me going to an elden ring forum and then complaining about it being too hard to reach max level in elden ring.
Ofc you can farm billions of runes and reach max level, but the game isnt balanced around you having to be max level, its just an arbitery level cap.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

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Nyon#6673 wrote:

But your not making any sense? how are you having your time deleted?

Im gonna give you the benefit of doubt and assume that youve managed to reach lvl 90 since its basicly free.

At this point exp basicly doesnt matter, so your probably spending your time doing something else, farming currency, breachstone. So if you die your time isnt deleted cause youve still gotten the things you wanted.

There is no reason you have to get lvl 100, and it also gives you almost nothing. Its an optional challenge for those that like to grind to lvl 100.
And if you dont like it then dont do it.

Your complaining that you dont like to do content thats optional.

Stop trying to gaslight me.

Yes my time absolutely gets deleted every time I die and lose 10% exp. This is a fact. And just calling something "optional" isn't an excuse for bad game design.

And stop with your fixation on lvl100 this lvl100 that people don't care about this they just wanna level at their own pace without having their time completely wasted by the game.

And there is a reason to eventually passively get lvl100, its more base hp and mana and a few extra skill points. Stop gatekeeping lvl100 as if its some grand achievement, its not. It never will be. And this game will never be an e-sport either. Nobody cares about the "race to lvl100" lmao

Your not providing any arguments or content to your point at all.

Getting lvl 100 is an achievement, weither you like it or not. And there are those that enjoy it. Its incredibly simple, if you dont like to grind for lvl 100, then dont do it, you can enjoy the rest of the game without being lvl 100, its 100% optional.

When you play elden ring do you farm billions of runes to get max level?
No because thats not how the game is balanced

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

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ogmersault#4806 wrote:

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Yep, it just encourages people to play it safe and that makes the game boooooooooooooooooring.

It sounds like you find playing safe boring. That’s also optional.

Yeah and then you die and lose hours of your exp for no reason. People don't want to have their time deleted lol how is this so hard to understand? Exp loss is outdated and doesn't belong in a game in the year 2025. Especially not in Softcore.

You lost your xp because your build failed. You just got the memo, and ignored it.
Everyone passively reaching max level is also outdated and doesn’t belong in THIS game in the year 2025. Especially not in path of exile 2

Lol. How are these "take away the XP penalty" threads still a thing. Y'all are wild.