POE 2 speed slowed down. Yay or Nay ?

"

1453R wrote:

Lemme put this in perspective.

You see this build?

This build - this 70k ES Righteous Fire build so overgeared it can AFK The Feared while down two gem slots, with a teleport-fast Shield Charge and an RF so powerful it erases monsters literally the instant they enter the field no matter their level or mods?

This is what Religion of Zoom players are saying "any halfway competent nitwit with three chaos to rub together" should be able to build and play within about two days of league start, tops.

Dude, that is a multi mirror build captain lance spend a month on just crafting the gear after getting massive donations from all his viewers to even have the money. This is by no means something you can throw together for 3 chaos and it's way beyond anything needed for this game or even to play zoom zoom. If zoom is all you want there are plenty of options available that cost a few divines at best.

Nobody except you would ever go and say that's the default you should have in this game, not even the "i make a mirror in my first week every league" casuals on reddit. It's just an absurdly big hyperbole you pulled there.

Not only was that a hyperbole the size of a black hole, one could argue PoE has been threading this path (hoho) since Nemesis with Headhunter, with speed focused Leagues as early as Synthesis. The only feasible argument is how they have been prolonging the grind to absurd amounts lately.

And with Ruthless being an option now, your argument fall even flatter on the ground.

"

Phrazz wrote:

Wrong.

People aren't saying that. At all. What people are saying, is that A LOT of builds can do closed to all content on a very limited budget. There are PLENTY of "1 divine challenge" (and less/more) out there, showcasing that "insane scaling" isn't needed at all.

It isn't needed, but it IS expected. If you don't scale to the level of that Righteous Fire build every single league you're basically laughed off the forums and any other communications platform for the game, slapped with the Dark Soulsian "git gud skrub" and cut out of the game's economy when you can't keep up with the wave crest of turbosweats.

"

Phrazz wrote:

The insane scaling is what keeps dedicated players interested. Something to strive towards in the long run - AFTER they've earn some coin. When this kind of speed isn't - in any way, shape or form - needed, nor balanced around, I don't see the huge problem here.

It would've been a HUGE problem if these kinds of builds where the center of balance. Luckily, they aren't - and if anyone would ever claim that, they'd be dead wrong. You link an INSANE outlier of a build to use as an example to hyperbole your point. I could spend 5 seconds on Youtube, finding a slow build that could beat all content. Both examples would probably be useless. GGG does not "cater" to those builds more than others. They make builds like that POSSIBLE through dedication, effort and investment as a carrot.

That's sorta been my argument the entire time - the Religion of Zoom people are trying to get Grinding Gear to use this level of speed/wealth/power as the default balance point. Religion of Zoom folks want content that would be a severe challenge to THIS level of build and they accuse "Bads" of being the reason they don't have it. And not just one-off stuff like Uber Pinnacle content - I see posts/threads from Religion of Zoomers all the time demanding that ALL ENDGAME CONTENT PERIOD be tuned this way. Demanding that you need 10M Pinnacle DPS and 150k EHP just to break out of white maps. The argument is always "idiots who don't know how to Git Gudder and make characters at least this strong should just finish the campaign and leave, they're not real players and there's no need for Grinding Gear to account for them when making new stuff."

The whole idea for these people is that the floor should be so high, the gate so hard to open, the knowledge and experience required simply to complete content past A10 Kitava so esoteric and difficult to acquire, that effectively nobody who isn't already at that level can ever get to that level. They're looking for a completely closed system that exists solely to serve the people it's already serving, so completely and fundamentally hostile to new/more casual/slower folks that there's no longer any sense in playing the game at all, and they justify it by saying "Diablows Mour exists for the losers and lamers who can't make ten mirrors in seven days, THIS game is for REAL ARPG players. Go away and never come back."

Again - that is simply not sustainable.

"

Phrazz wrote:

The whole point (IMO) of an ARPG is to progress and become more powerful than the environment. PoE lets you do that - and then some. That approach is MUCH better than certain other ARPGs where everything scale based on you, and you 'always' seem kind of lacking.

Should PoE slow down? Maybe a little bit. But PoE's speed is kind of its signature at this point, as has been for years. It's what separates PoE from other ARPGs. PoE should NOT strive to be more like its competition. If people like slow, tactical gameplay where you fight an elite pack for minutes, there are several games out there that lets you do that. PoE does not need to cater to that.

And there we go. "You're bad at Path of Exile, so just leave and play something else that doesn't have any of the customization, build diversity, or exotic skill design Path of Exile is known for. You can't map/clear so fast you can make ten mirrors in seven days so you don't really belong here."

Lost Epoch is early access and thus not an actual, real game. Diablows Mour is, as you yourself noted, deeply flawed in many ways as well as being incredibly boring and one-dimensional in its buildcraft. I enjoy this game for its depth of options and strong ongoing support. I do not enjoy constantly being invalidated by asshat turbosweats flipping me virtual bird fingers before saying "I don't trade with FILTHY CASUALS" and trying to steal my stuff.

If slowing down the core game some helps offset that tendency and frustrates the worst sort of players into maybe not being quite such cockwaffles while making Natural Pace play more engaging and exciting? (and for the record Feike, I'm not a 'Natural Pace' player and don't assume my experience is theirs; I'm probably significantly faster than the average Natural Pace guy, I'm just also drastically slower than fifty-mirror Righteous Fire builds turbosweats insist are 'the norm' and people who're level 95 and in red maps by hour six of a new league.)

Cool.

The fact that people are fighting so hard to get Grinding Gear to [/i]not[/i] improve their animations, skill effects, and moment-to-moment combat flow is utterly baffling to me regardless of where they stand on maps-per-minute. Like, how is that even a thing? How can people honestly, legitimately say they'd rather keep the old bad janky fifteen year old assets when we have the one and only chance we'll ever have[ to update this shit to a more modern standard?

"

1453R wrote:

It isn't needed, but it IS expected. If you don't scale to the level of that Righteous Fire build every single league you're basically laughed off the forums and any other communications platform for the game, slapped with the Dark Soulsian "git gud skrub" and cut out of the game's economy when you can't keep up with the wave crest of turbosweats.

1- Youre caring WAAAY too much what other people tell you

2-Its scrub, uber noobish, botton of the barrel low tier, mentality to talk like gear is reflective of skill

A real pro show off by flooring a uber deathless with gear worth less than 1 divine, that is legit impressive. A 5-year old can clear content with multi-mirror gear

Oh, ok. He decided hyperbole wasn't enough and decided to employ every fallacy and bias in existence.

Sigh.

Feike.

It's not about impressing Zoomer Sempai.

I'm hoping to play next league. Haven't played a league since Kalandra, just haven't felt like it, but I'm in the mood now and thinking I'll give whatever 3.22 is a shot unless it's a total disaster.

The build I'm planning needs Cluster jewels for ideal performance. It needs a Brutal Restraint. I'm designing it to work with Quill Rain because I really enjoy Quill Rain builds despite the bow's overall shittiness, but at later tiers it'd be nice to get a corrupted Quill Rain with Frenzy on kill. I'm specifically targeting overall mid-to-low gear and trying to minimize pricey uniques, but I still need access to the market for those basic items.

If I take longer than a week to get to the market and look for those items because I'm 'slow'? Nobody will sell them to me. Anyone who does will charge exhorbitant prices, which sucks because I'm one of those folks who doesn't understand how turbosweats make money/refuses to spend all my time flipping, so I'm always low on currency. In Standard right now, experimenting with this Exsanguinate Scion to keep my attention while I wait for ExileCon the Second, I don't think I've managed to buy something for less than ten chaos.

It is hard to acquire worthwhile gear. And turbosweats deciding the league is over after five days because that's all they need to beat everything they care to beat and make their fifty-mirror Righteous Fire builds does not fucking help.

I'm already planning on shit-tier gear with maybe three mid-level useful rolls tops and minimum rolls on my flasks, trying to get to The DPS Mark with what amounts to 60-life ~50 total res garbage with no offensive affixes, no eldritch implicits or corruptions, no catalysts, no specialty mods like Delve or Essence, no Influenced items, on deeply suboptimal base types, with a 5L main skill. Because that is the only shit available to me after Week One of a league. I'm generally doing fuckin' amazing if I can get somebody to sell me a corrupted 6L with ~50 life and a single resist number anywhere on the gear on a low-tier base type for less than thirty chaos.

This.

Is.

Unsustainable.

At some point it's all going to implode like the fuckin' housing market and Grinding Gear is going to HAVE to slow shit way down, and people will howl for blood despite the fact that pumping the breaks every once in a while and resetting to a sane point of progression speed after years of Speed Creep is fundamentally necessary. Remember when Grinding Gear eliminated double dipping and everybody shrieked like banshees over the "gigantic" hit to character power? Except now you can get to DPS figures ten or more times the value of those old double dipping builds because of constant Speed Creep? Yeah.

Unsustainable.

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

Not only was that a hyperbole the size of a black hole

Since the main discussion is not gonna go anywhere, im gonna drop some piece of legit knowledge:

Black holes are actually small. Like the earth have gravitational pull on an area much broader than what you would consider the earth proper, black holes are that on a extreme, they have immense gravitational pull, but the core of the black hole, called singularity, is actually(bellieved to be) a very tiny sphere(as in, sub-atomic levels of tiny)

The small size is actually important because a key property of it is that it packs multiple suns(minimum) worth of mass on a volume that cant even fit an electron resulting in reality-bending levels of density

There is another area that is called the event horizon, witch is the area around the singularity that is dominated by the gravitational pull of the black hole and once something enters that area, it cannot escape the pull assuming the light speed really is the max achievable speed. The size of the event horizon varies a lot, but its usually rather small, like, double digits of kilometers

There are some exceptional black holes with cosmic-sized event horizons, but those are not the rule

"

feike wrote:

Since the main discussion is not gonna go anywhere, im gonna drop some piece of legit knowledge:

Black holes are actually small. Like the earth have gravitational pull on an area much broader than what you would consider the earth proper, black holes are that on a extreme, they have immense gravitational pull, but the core of the black hole, called singularity, is actually(bellieved to be) a very tiny sphere(as in, sub-atomic levels of tiny)

The small size is actually important because a key property of it is that it packs multiple suns(minimum) worth of mass on a volume that cant even fit an electron resulting in reality-bending levels of density

There is another area that is called the event horizon, witch is the area around the singularity that is dominated by the gravitational pull of the black hole and once something enters that area, it cannot escape the pull assuming the light speed really is the max achievable speed. The size of the event horizon varies a lot, but its usually rather small, like, double digits of kilometers

There are some exceptional black holes with cosmic-sized event horizons, but those are not the rule

Which ironically, i know. What i don't know is why the fuck i said size and not weight. Or maybe i was thinking about the Interstellar black hole, that would make more sense. If i remember, the same gravitational pull of the earth would be equal to a small sphere if it was a black hole.

"

1453R wrote:

Sigh.

Feike.

It's not about impressing Zoomer Sempai.

I'm hoping to play next league. Haven't played a league since Kalandra, just haven't felt like it, but I'm in the mood now and thinking I'll give whatever 3.22 is a shot unless it's a total disaster.

The build I'm planning needs Cluster jewels for ideal performance. It needs a Brutal Restraint. I'm designing it to work with Quill Rain because I really enjoy Quill Rain builds despite the bow's overall shittiness, but at later tiers it'd be nice to get a corrupted Quill Rain with Frenzy on kill. I'm specifically targeting overall mid-to-low gear and trying to minimize pricey uniques, but I still need access to the market for those basic items.

If I take longer than a week to get to the market and look for those items because I'm 'slow'? Nobody will sell them to me. Anyone who does will charge exhorbitant prices, which sucks because I'm one of those folks who doesn't understand how turbosweats make money/refuses to spend all my time flipping, so I'm always low on currency. In Standard right now, experimenting with this Exsanguinate Scion to keep my attention while I wait for ExileCon the Second, I don't think I've managed to buy something for less than ten chaos.

It is hard to acquire worthwhile gear. And turbosweats deciding the league is over after five days because that's all they need to beat everything they care to beat and make their fifty-mirror Righteous Fire builds does not fucking help.

I'm already planning on shit-tier gear with maybe three mid-level useful rolls tops and minimum rolls on my flasks, trying to get to The DPS Mark with what amounts to 60-life ~50 total res garbage with no offensive affixes, no eldritch implicits or corruptions, no catalysts, no specialty mods like Delve or Essence, no Influenced items, on deeply suboptimal base types, with a 5L main skill. Because that is the only shit available to me after Week One of a league. I'm generally doing fuckin' amazing if I can get somebody to sell me a corrupted 6L with ~50 life and a single resist number anywhere on the gear on a low-tier base type for less than thirty chaos.

This.

Is.

Unsustainable.

At some point it's all going to implode like the fuckin' housing market and Grinding Gear is going to HAVE to slow shit way down, and people will howl for blood despite the fact that pumping the breaks every once in a while and resetting to a sane point of progression speed after years of Speed Creep is fundamentally necessary. Remember when Grinding Gear eliminated double dipping and everybody shrieked like banshees over the "gigantic" hit to character power? Except now you can get to DPS figures ten or more times the value of those old double dipping builds because of constant Speed Creep? Yeah.

Unsustainable.

I dont flip items and i make ~50 divines a league and never even had a level 99 character. Problem is probably that you don't play starter builds. Each league for me is:

1. Play starter build
2. Make like 10 div and get your items for your "stupid" build.
3. Have fun.

"

Genobee wrote:

I'm personally not a fan of how fast the game has become. It's either you go all in or trying to enjoy the game is a living nightmare. As by the time you start making progress it's over for those who sped through everything in a few weeks at most.

Then maps boil down to killing things at such a hilariously fast speed it can become incredibly difficult to even say what happened. Maps done though. Where's the fun in that?

Everything in this game right now boils down to speed, and knowing 50 different convoluted mechanics. Having depth is fine. Asinine complexity for the sake of it is not.

I don't get any fun out of the current version of the game. It just feels tedious on a good day. Beyond that it serves to chase my friends off an ensure they won't touch the game again. Couple that with the other problems I've mentioned, and countless I haven't? I'm surprised the game is doing as well as it is.

There has to be a better way to approach it. Right now there doesn't seem to be any real benefit to what they do. I'm hoping PoE2 changes up things drastically in terms of gameplay. It needs it - in my opinion.

I agree with this in essence. There's a fine line and balance of your audience expecting new gameplay mechanics and content and bogging down your game. Even with currency/crafting items it's so convoluted, and crafting now has gone from something to enhance your play to basically being compulsory and making drops secondary.

The problem when you add so many drastic gameplay changes EVERY season is many you can never take back, they stack on top of each other and you have a huge cluster. It also eliminates any for of group play when you have builds clearing maps in sub 2min, it doesn't matter but having someone with is always going to slow you down when end game is basically all instanced.

I hope POE2 brings some form of open world multiplayer incentive, even something as simple as XP farming XP, or group loot farming actual acts and not instanced maps - actual lobby games so people can join in.


TLDR: Quality over quantity. Once you create a Frankenstein it's too late. They have a chance now to incrementally be slower with more thought-out season/gameplay change sin POE2. Turn that speed knob slowly and assess, rather than just jacking it up to 11 in one hit.