They will delete MF in 3.24?

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Aynix wrote:

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hmcg020 wrote:

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Aynix wrote:

Honestly I preffer "corruption" system LE has over MF on the gear and current wisps is mechanic simillar to that, but way more uncontrolable. You make everything on the map stronger, tankier, more dnagerous in general and it drops more loot.
MF as a mod on the gear is just outdated design.

That in a nutshell is affliction minus the wisps; what's prompted so many to scREEch they want MF gone.

Yeah, because they were mad tha t their shit build cannot make as much money as those top mirror tier builds.
Such system makes big diffrence how much "money" you can farm on very strong build vs on meh build, while currently there is barely any diffrence (thing that matters the most, currently, is speed)

Agreed.

Envy and ignorance blinds people to the fact MF is simply putting 5-50 mirrors into a build to have a faster rate at building currency. Squishier, slower, weaker, infinitely more expensive to gear out, but has greater currency generation per mob.

Run a build that can do harder content, faster for a 10th of that investment and who ends up on top after a 4-month league?

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hmcg020 wrote:

Agreed.

Envy and ignorance blinds people to the fact MF is simply putting 5-50 mirrors into a build to have a faster rate at building currency. Squishier, slower, weaker, infinitely more expensive to gear out, but has greater currency generation per mob.

Run a build that can do harder content, faster for a 10th of that investment and who ends up on top after a 4-month league?

Yeah the main problem is that exiles without MF want to make the same profits as exiles with MF in the same type of play style and content, it's like a person riding a mountain bike complaining about Mountain Goats to be able to climb up the mountains better than them and being able to climb up in the first place.

Obviously exiles with MF will have more efficiency running maps but not killing Maven, but apparently for those, it's bad to MF to be able to profit in the content they are built into.

the major complaint about MF is how it completely skews the high end market when most people struggle to break 5 divs/hr even with very good builds and decent luck most leagues and the people who are mfing can usually make 20+ divs/hr, which makes it incredibly difficult for people to break into the high end market without running MF, the issue beyond it making high end gear even more difficult to afford for those that choose to not run MF is that there are a lot of builds that cannot reasonably run MF. Therefore it is overly centralizing and it is likely a significant culprit as to why somewhere around a third of the playerbase ends up playing tornado shot every league instead of other builds, as TS can play full magicfind without too many sacrifices.

TL:DR MF stifles build diversity and makes it harder for players to play what they want and still have access to chase items.

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CarbotZergling123 wrote:

the major complaint about MF is how it completely skews the high end market when most people struggle to break 5 divs/hr even with very good builds and decent luck most leagues and the people who are mfing can usually make 20+ divs/hr, which makes it incredibly difficult for people to break into the high end market without running MF, the issue beyond it making high end gear even more difficult to afford for those that choose to not run MF is that there are a lot of builds that cannot reasonably run MF. Therefore it is overly centralizing and it is likely a significant culprit as to why somewhere around a third of the playerbase ends up playing tornado shot every league instead of other builds, as TS can play full magicfind without too many sacrifices.

TL:DR MF stifles build diversity and makes it harder for players to play what they want and still have access to chase items.

No, thats major complaint from jelous people ho think they deserver everything to be handed to them. The major problem with MF is not MF itself - its how we get it. Being limited by what gear poieces you can use (and, because of that, what build you can play) is just BORING. MF should be tied to the content you are running, not the gear you are wearing. Every build should be able to use MF and MF should make every content harder. You should be rewarded for having both gear and build that can handle the extra challenge. Affliction did it well, but the problem was we had borin "gear MF" on top of affliction bonuses so, once again, vast majroty of people were playing same fking build wearing same fking gear.

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CanelayAzucar wrote:

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hmcg020 wrote:

Agreed.

Envy and ignorance blinds people to the fact MF is simply putting 5-50 mirrors into a build to have a faster rate at building currency. Squishier, slower, weaker, infinitely more expensive to gear out, but has greater currency generation per mob.

Run a build that can do harder content, faster for a 10th of that investment and who ends up on top after a 4-month league?

Yeah the main problem is that exiles without MF want to make the same profits as exiles with MF in the same type of play style and content, it's like a person riding a mountain bike complaining about Mountain Goats to be able to climb up the mountains better than them and being able to climb up in the first place.

Obviously exiles with MF will have more efficiency running maps but not killing Maven, but apparently for those, it's bad to MF to be able to profit in the content they are built into.

Love the mountain goat analogy. May not be an ideal representation as you can't really invest into becoming a goat lol, but the imagery was hilarious.

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CarbotZergling123 wrote:

the major complaint about MF is how it completely skews the high end market when most people struggle to break 5 divs/hr even with very good builds and decent luck most leagues and the people who are mfing can usually make 20+ divs/hr, which makes it incredibly difficult for people to break into the high end market without running MF, the issue beyond it making high end gear even more difficult to afford for those that choose to not run MF is that there are a lot of builds that cannot reasonably run MF. Therefore it is overly centralizing and it is likely a significant culprit as to why somewhere around a third of the playerbase ends up playing tornado shot every league instead of other builds, as TS can play full magicfind without too many sacrifices.

TL:DR MF stifles build diversity and makes it harder for players to play what they want and still have access to chase items.

You're paraphrasing the same uninformed opinion as previously addressed in this thread, several times, and in several different ways.

Your opinion, like many others' on here is completely backwards and called tall-poppy syndrome: a perceived tendency to discredit or disparage those who have achieved notable wealth.... What it fails to take into account is literally everything other that "but what about me!?" tunnel-vision. People think you just have an MF build then just get given more currency. Like the supermarkets just have food and the banks just have money. It's so unbelievably ignorant it's astounding.

Caveat to the below


MF builds take an (arbitrary) ~10-1000x more currency to flesh out. Additionally, these builds are responsible for the overwhelming volume of currency and chase items available in the economy. The market then dictates the rate at which those items depreciate due to an ever-increasing supply. So, not only do these builds provide the market with currency and savings due to depreciation, but the god damn chase items in the first place.

Squishier, weaker, gated out of end-game, infinitely more expensive though can generate more currency per mob once you can afford to get them up and running. You're set back whatever you invest, to then benefit from the interest rate on your farm from then on. So, you invest year's worth of currency to have a small increase in returns.

Historically, MF in PoE was something that OGs did once they'd built up a few mirrors over many years and leagues. Culling for parties and using those builds to get a little more out of each map. Affliction just put that timeline into a Hyperbolic Time Chamber so now all these people can MF within a month. All of the above still stands though, and even people with 0/0% could get rich AND play end-game without investing as much, and being stronger, faster for cheaper.

Simple mathematical representation:

The essence of an Action RPG lies in character progression and empowerment. MF directly contradict this principle by incentivizing players to weaken their characters in order to obtain better loot. Instead of focusing on becoming stronger to tackle higher-level challenges, players are encouraged to artificially lower their effectiveness, which undermines the core progression loop of the game.

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ShamelessWhiteknight wrote:

The essence of an Action RPG lies in character progression and empowerment. MF directly contradict this principle by incentivizing players to weaken their characters in order to obtain better loot. Instead of focusing on becoming stronger to tackle higher-level challenges, players are encouraged to artificially lower their effectiveness, which undermines the core progression loop of the game.

This train of thought ran out of fuel before reaching its final destination. You passed a few points of interest though. People play MF to acquire currency and chase items to sell and accumulate to then make builds that completely satisfy the conditions of your argument. Outside of bots and RMT, people are not dragons hoarding and irrationally protecting wealth. They do it to then make builds that are just beyond ridiculous like Belton's omni build. Or to then have a go at creating a mirror service.

This is the first time I played MF, and I won't play it again because the playstyle sucks tremendously. I exclusively play this game for the power fantasy you mentioned, though I recognised the potential for the fantasy to reach new limits if I invested 3 months into affection league (I started a month late).

MF isn't particularly more expensive than any other optimised build except for extreme demand caused by its extreme results you are doing the exact same thing you are castigating others for by taking extreme outliers then applying them to everyone else.

Most players aren't paying 500 div for an extra 2% rarity even though the most dedicated MF'ers will.

PoE is an extremely easy game to glass cannon with very few drawbacks so its exactly as ShamelessWhiteKnight says about it contradicting the design principle, this is identical in practice to bossing characters (the MF of specific drop content) where they have a borderline unusable character but it kills any boss in one hit so the actual characteristics are irrelevant compared to its purpose.

MF isn't intended to operate like that, its supposed to be a tangible tradeoff much like adding layers of delirium to a map - more juice, more difficulty. This isn't the case right now due to the content of the game being outdated compared to the methods of consuming it.

Overall though MF isn't going anywhere, it would take a fundamental design change to address what I mentioned above as really its interconnected to the existing problems of the game transitioning to full zoomer. I'd expect MF to be substantially different in PoE2 however where they get to have another tilt at the same problem. I'd never advocate removing MF either, its a build choice and it can add some really solid depth when it has the correct tradeoff.

Just in this leagues terms it should have only been the very best MF builds that could even do 10k+ wildwood juice and it simply wasn't, no tradeoff, no point.

MF is not more expensive until you get into mirror tier, I could throw together a perfectly decent MF chieftan for about 50 divs in affliction and less in previous leagues, its just there are very few builds that can actually do MF without making sacrifices that basically cripple the build and this results in the vast majority of players getting funneled into MF if they ever want to have access to high end items like MB or chase FFF's, and as others have pointed out MF goes pretty strongly against the actual fantasy of ARPGs and has a nasty tendancy to turn playing the game into a chore. It distorts the market by giving the people who do MF over any other strat access to vastly more raw currency than other builds and drastically curtails what builds are truly competitive, the point of a wide open ARPG like PoE is that if you know what you are doing you should be able to play basically whatever build you want if you are actually mechanically decent at the game. Magic Find and the completely borked PoE economy directly contradicts that fantasy and drives massive inflation that other builds cannot reasonably address. Your whole rant about tall poppy syndrome is a complete misapprehension of at least everything I have said and quite possibly everyone else who has been complaining about MF distorting the economy, I am not complaining that the people who were lucky enough or dedicated the absurd amount of time into getting multiple mirrors having an easier time than me, I am complaining about how MF drives the price of items that you can't easily get while MFing up by an absurd margin, which makes it a serious struggle for people doing those other strategies to afford items that their builds want or need while also making it so you basically have to play x cheap mf build if you want to be able to afford the actual build you wanted to play this league if its not league startable.