death penalty, race to 100: philosophical conflicts?

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Echothesis#7320 wrote:

Poe1 is all about randomness, not player actions, which is why is isn't equipped to support steep death penalty.

We must be playing a different game. There are extremely rare instances of instant spike deaths that can be puzzling or are just downright unlucky crits (which can be fully negated), but the other 99.99% of the time it is NOT random. To claim that PoE 1 gameplay is all about randomness is completely misunderstanding how the game works.

You might see a screenshot someone posts of a random rare monster with almost unbeatable combination of mods, on top of a punishing set of map modifiers....but that's about as rare as getting struck by lightning twice. And a decent chunk of that is generally still under the control of the player.

If what you claim is true...basically no one would be able to get to 100 in HC, or hardcore would legitimately not exist. It is damn near impossible to "beat" random.

99% of "random deaths" are lack of experience and knowledge about the game. It just so happens that this game has so much information playing 2-3 years you're still likely to be a novice if you play sc.

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Lonnie455Rich#2087 wrote:

99% of "random deaths" are lack of experience and knowledge about the game. It just so happens that this game has so much information playing 2-3 years you're still likely to be a novice if you play sc.

It's a shame so few "veteran" players with years of experience realize this, and continue to complain about random deaths and unfair mechanics, to the point where they actively drive away all newcomers without allowing them even the chance to realize this is false. It's a complete situation of "hurt pride" and downright lack of effort that stops them from improving. Thus, in most situations it almost always is the same "random" death happening over and over again.

The game requiring 3+ layers of defenses at a minimum is not the same as "random" deaths. We can talk about defense requirement minimums separately, but don't conflate that with randomness and unpredictability.

Random unlucky deaths certainly do exist, they are just exceedingly rare to the point of being non-existent in the progression of a character.

^
If you get put off by normies shouting something you'd never do anything I don't really think its a problem, and if it is its one immediately dispelled by talking to players with experience of it.

I suspect the players put off by the general aura of "oh its unfair" aren't interested in playing that mode to begin with.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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Lonnie455Rich#2087 wrote:

99% of "random deaths" are lack of experience and knowledge about the game. It just so happens that this game has so much information playing 2-3 years you're still likely to be a novice if you play sc.

It's a shame so few "veteran" players with years of experience realize this, and continue to complain about random deaths and unfair mechanics, to the point where they actively drive away all newcomers without allowing them even the chance to realize this is false. It's a complete situation of "hurt pride" and downright lack of effort that stops them from improving. Thus, in most situations it almost always is the same "random" death happening over and over again.

The game requiring 3+ layers of defenses at a minimum is not the same as "random" deaths. We can talk about defense requirement minimums separately, but don't conflate that with randomness and unpredictability.

Random unlucky deaths certainly do exist, they are just exceedingly rare to the point of being non-existent in the progression of a character.

Man this post is too real. Not too long ago, we had a post where someone was complaining about OP oneshots killing his character in yellow maps, while insisting that he knew what he was doing because he'd been playing for ten years.

Then we pulled his character up in path of building, and he didn't even have capped lightning resistance.

Far too many people conflate hours played with knowledge earned, and their ego won't allow them to admit that they're still really bad at the game so they never ever get better.

Not sure why a brand new game needs to carry the old shit with it .

I actually like the change, makes the game more hardcore without capping your character's butt and progress by deleting it from the league. The new Atlas so far looks fantastic!! It's a blend of Delve and the first POE Atlas expansion, with sextants working in AOE. Pretty cool 😎

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TemjinGold#1898 wrote:

I'm a staunch defender of the XP penalty. I believe in the need for meaningful punishment when you die. But I do see where Snorkle is coming from and don't disagree with those points. If the new norm is that dying a lot basically locks you out of high level/valuable content, then that itself is a good enough punishment in my eyes. If there is no point where you have so many possible continuation points that you could just afford to die every other map, then that is artificially an xp penalty in itself (as you are forced to do much lower content when your atlas resets).

Don't get me wrong, I personally would love to keep the xp penalty. But if this new design means there's already a ton of punishment for deaths, then I'm fine with them doing away with it.

right. ive been defending penalty all along, i was against them lowering it from 15% to 10% or whatever the change they made was and i argued that in the forums.



i dont actually think the death penalty is good, but it does an essential job, the game would be a complete joke without it. in an ideal world there would be a better way of achieving what the death penalty achieves, but weve been here for 12 years now having this debate in these forums and i havent seen a single person suggest an alternative mechanic for poe1 that would work as well as the death penalty does. penalty comes with downsides like avoiding challenging content, its not a perfect solution in many ways.




however with the new way the bosses and endgame content works in poe2 they can actually have a different effective way of punishing you on death. personally i think the 1 and done map/boss mechanics is better than a death penalty. its a more interesting mechanic, in a way its a bit more punishing than the death penalty was but i dont mind that at all. if you die now it ruins your plans of moving through the atlas and you have to make a new plan, rethink, you dont get the reward you were aiming for. to me thats better than you just get pushed backwards X amount of hours and the solution is to just do the same thing all over again to get back to where you were.








jonathan was saying maybe we dont need a penalty before lvl90. if i was in charge i would absolutely go with that for launch, no way i would be going in with a 10% xp penalty on all deaths on top of this other stuff in all endgame.


personally i would go for a scaling mechanic and a sort of lvl98/99 soft cap on character xp. i would add a 1% xp penalty per level from 90 onwards. so lvl90 you get 1% penalty, 91 you get 2%.. at lvl99 you get 10% penalty. then i would massively up the xp it takes to get from lvl99 to 100, maybe double it over the xp it takes in poe1, and probably increase the xp from 98 to 99 by a bit, maybe 30%.

if you really have to preserve the integrity of the ladder race and just having a lvl100 character in general on release as a matter of design principal then i would go with something like that.