My experience with Path of Exile 2 so far

I don't have anything to bring to your topics, simply wanted to say the pleasure I had reading you both. I guess the non click bait title made it go silent to trolls :D
Getting some perspective on things that I agree, disagree, or just didn't know before, was quite refreshing in that pile of vomit that are these forums.

Thank you Sirs, wishing you good fun for next year, wherever you may find it.

Don't worry about it, you haven't come off as an ass in your replies.

Your experience of PoE 2 is honestly heartbreaking. It's very unfortunate how much there are outside factors colouring your opinion of the game. Though oddly enough I haven't had any issues with performance in PoE 2. Even though my PC isn't very high end. Maybe it gets worse in mapping.

Your view of indie and triple A is one I share. Yet I trust both GGG and Digital Extremes (Warframe dev) even though both are owned by Tencent. Both have shown integrity in their monetization systems, even after Tencent bought them out. It would seem Tencent doesn't really mess with the companies as long as they continue to make money. I think it's more important that we actually pay attention to track record of individual companies than pile them all up in the same piles because of association.

I also do not rate PoE 2 highly right now. But I'm willing to wait it out and not render judgement until full release. I think you might forget that I started this thread with my dissatisfaction with PoE 2. And it proceeded to a conversation about my issues with PoE 1 because most of my problems with PoE 2 are actually just the same problems PoE 1 has but turned up to eleven.

As for your statement on swords and magic. It seems to me like you have quite a strong bias. You seem to prefer magic and see no problem with people with different interests being mostly ignored. Yes, it is a smaller audience, but it seems a bit odd to me that it's better to try to get them out of their comfort zone than give them fun things to play with. And if it's a great quality of games to push people out of their comfort zones, should we not do that to magic and bow enjoyers too? Why do we single out melee enjoyers in that? It just seems like a glass cannon argument. An argument that sounds fine on surface but falls apart if you think about it.

As for Warframe raids, I didn't play when they were in the game. I hadn't started yet. So I can't really comment on why they were removed. I really have no idea. A lot of people have been calling for their return. If I were to throw a guess blindly I'd say it has to do with netcoding since that's what crashed the hopes the Railjack system had of joining ground squads for missions.

I didn't address before your statement of them knowing better than I do. I believe that is true, yes. They work on this for a living, I'm just someone watching from the sidelines. They certainly have more expertise. Do I believe that they still have blind spots and that they make mistakes? Absolutely. I have zero doubt. I am fully certain they are fallible human beings who have biases and blind spots. And I think some of those can work to make their game less popular and profitable than it can be. And I'm simply offering my perspective. If they find some value in it, great. If I'm completely mistaken and my input cannot be used to improve the game, I hope they see that and don't listen to me. But ultimately, I'm doing my best, and I won't just shut up because I MIGHT be wrong.

Also it seems there has been a misunderstanding. I used the games like GI as example because they are the worst example. I don't at all believe GGG is as bad as them. Not by a long shot. In fact I don't believe GGG shares their cynical view of the gaming market. I fully believe there are passionate people at GGG that really want to make a good game, they need funds to continue developing the game and monetize because of that, rather than montizing because they want to extract every dollar from us they can. And I hope them all the best, and any time I offer criticism it's because I want them to succeed and if I can offer an alternative perspective to them with good reasoning that they can use to improve their game, I will be happy to do so.

See GGG are aware of serotonin loops and all that and might use such things in their game development. In fact it's even likely. But the difference here is attitude. Why do they make their game? Is it FOR money, or is it because they just want to make a good game. They obviously need money to make a good game, so they need to monetize and I don't hold it against them in the slightest. And them showing integrity in HOW they monetize would indicate to me that they respect us as players and customers. Which would imply to me that they are making this out of passion rather than greed. How does this relate to what I was talking about earlier? Well we can look at something like Riot games. They balance their game based on what characters sell the most skins. Those characters are always stronger than others. Because they do it out of greed. GGG however, because I believe they are not as greedy, I would assume they care more about the game being good than it being the most profitable it can possibly be in the short term. I suppose that could be seen as naïve. But I like to give the benefit of the doubt.

As for what I want from builds. I have not EVER beaten an uber boss. I have not EVER beaten a T17 on my own. Even my most powerful build ever has not been good enough to get to that level. This is what I mean with balancing being done with only the top players in mind. I simply cannot achieve such a level. In fact I've only ever gotten I think 2 or 3 characters strong enough to beat pinnacle bosses. I think you underestimate how much I struggle with the game. And it's not just my stubbornness to not use meta. Frostblades of Katabasis is absolutely meta. I used CoC DD in the last league. I played Locus mines power siphon as a league starter. Really, I don't avoid meta. But even when I play meta I cannot get to the level where I can start earning good currency. I don't think I've ever held 100+ divs in my stash at one time. I think the highest amount of divs I've ever had in my stash at once has been 60.

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I don't have anything to bring to your topics, simply wanted to say the pleasure I had reading you both.

Glad you've enjoyed our interaction rob_korn. I love having discussions like this and it saddens me that this kind of conversation culture is all but dead. I wish a good new year to you as well good sir!

First of all.

Happy new year to you both. I wish you all the good that you can get!

This discussion is one that I also very much enjoy. I am happy to see it's not only me.

Now to your points. Let me divide it into three parts.

1. The developers and our trust in them. I think we have just different views/personalities, I am as you already observed more cynical and untrusting. That is probably true. I believe it's better to not trust companies and be pleasantly surprised than to be trusting and disappointed. I don't have high hopes regarding Poe 2, but I do wish us both to be surprised with awesome changes and a 10/10 goty title on release or hopefully earlier.

2. Sword and shield. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. You could just insert anything for "sword and shield". I actually like that concept a lot.

I used it just as an example to make a point. The point was people sometimes get stuck in a power fantasy of being an archer, mage, warrior etc and they become very good at it. I know I do this frequently. And it becomes a closed circle.

"What will I play next league? I can make another trapper, like the last 5 leagues, I know all the ins and outs already. I can tell you the path i will take on the tree with my eyes closed, I know what to craft and look for. It's not nerfed so I know exactly that I will be able to do all content and get everything done myself. There is absolutely no risk going with it."

This is something that I believe is a very common way of thinking. In wf I used necros/saryn/nova and few of my beloved weapons all the time. I loved their gameplay, I loved their power.. why would I switch to something unknown that can suck and I will be stuck somewhere?

In monster hunter world i played a lot with charge blade, sword and shield, long sword and gunlance (most are shield with something) and didn't even try other things for very long.

It was only when hammer was really good and fun to play against a certain monster i tried it and absolutely loved the gameplay. I had to build new sets, new weapons - it gave me a ton of replayability that was already in the game, I just didn't engage with it, because I was a stuck with what I was good at (charge blade) and absolutely loved.

That is basically the point I was trying to make. If that monster wouldn't be more approachable (easier, more fun) with something out of my comfort zone i wouldn't discover hammers and than hunting horns on a different one and dual blades on another one.. I wouldn't do it out of my own volition.

That's what I meant, that a little push out of our comfort zones sometimes works really well. You experience something different and I believe that experiencing is what games are for.

That is why I believe a shifting meta is not entirely a bad thing. It is an imperfect design, like all of them, but it has its merits and strong points.

3. Your experience with poe 1.

I honestly can't leave it like that. I got an offer for you and I don't want a no for an answer. I am currently on vacation so can't play, but once I get back home (around the incoming weekend) we could make your builds viable and you will go hunt some pinnacles and ubers. They are fun and engaging and you absolutely need to experience them. Prepare some towels and diapers, you will get your ass handed to you a lot XD, but it is well worth it.

Don't worry about farming, currency or maps/keys, I will supply all of it. Don't worry about failing and trying as well. The league is not going anywhere so we got plenty of time and I don't really enjoy Poe 2 so.. what say You?

4. Your experience with poe 1 as an overall problem.

I know that what I offered is like a bandaid for a real problem that you face and that I can't do that to everyone that struggles like you do. That is true and undeniable and I understand that you didn't came here looking for a bandaid, but for a fix.

I had similar experience to yours at the beginning of my journey with Poe, I also did struggle back in the days, maybe not as bad, but yeah my builds sometimes were absolutely horrible looking back. My pizza guardian was so bad in breach I dumped it at lvl 70 and skipped the league entirely. My freezing pulse build was so bad I absolutely don't know how I managed to kill anything with it. My first character never did maps beyond tier 3.. I ripped constantly on tier 2 from thrash mobs. It was a bit different back when I started, far less tools, videos, help..I had to learn from mistakes.

It got much better with time for me. You learn what works and how you should approach the game. Poe is not really good at explaining about just anything by itself. Without external tools it wouldn't survive in my opinion. I had time to learn and understand all of the basic concepts. Now when I return i just need to learn what now works, where it all shifted, but I can easily understand what's what. I have the basic orientation in poe forest because I am a veteran.

In the current poe 1 I think the issue is worse. You don't make your own builds because it is so "difficult" you don't know even where to begin.. so you resort to streamers and their builds. Those builds sometimes have explanations, but most of those are for experienced players, not really for new players. Most basic interactions are not really explained in them.. so when you see new player builds.. well let's say they can't work really well.

A short story from this league:

I helped a new player this league, he came to buy some cheap unique, I asked as always if he doesn't need anything else I can help with (I know I am not a usual poe player). He said he has problems with the build so I started to help him and adapt his build, crafted him some upgrades, tuned his res to fix them. Basically the starters.

He couldn't believe in what I am doing, I think he was absolutely sure I want to scam him in some way. Only when he got from me some item upgrades that he thought are multi divines gifts (well they were, but because of popularity of the build, they weren't that pricey to make) he started to believe I genuinely want to help him and don't want to scam.

He followed a guide to the letter, absolutely not understanding any of it. He was absolutely panicking when I wanted him to change something in his build. He referred to the guide as it was made by a god.. I tried to my best to explain him the basic interactions and why he should change things. It was a really difficult process. I fixed the basics, don't know how it went for him later.

I think that your situation might be a mix of starting late into Poe and having trouble navigating the convoluted and overly bloated character customization that we have now. Too many options, too little explanation on interactions, what should go with what and why (poe 2 support choice is for example a decent way to alleviate the problem in one place of many, but still done poorly with no explanation as to why).

The other hand is you mentioned skill issues that never help and I understand how it all can lock you out from creating or even successfully following a build guide.

For me, a veteran, I don't feel that the build options are too limited, the meta is to small. Some parts definitely could use some rework. Most is usable for me. I can find fun and engaging skills and make them to endgame. I know how to farm enough currency, how to make upgrades etc. For me it's ok. But it is for me. I am absolutely in no way denying your experience, but maybe it is a part of your journey with poe?

In my opinion poe is more of a knowledge based game than skill based game. Maybe you don't have skill issues? Maybe you lack knowledge and experience that just comes with time? You don't become expert welder fresh out of school, you need to weld a lot to become one. Just a thought.

I'll just get right into it.

There is definitely a difference between us. I don't like to make assumptions towards positive or negative. I give benefit of the doubt where applicable but that doesn't mean I assume things will be good. I will simply not assume the worst. I look at track records and make my predictions based on that, and I don't tie my emotions to them. Things will be good, or things will be bad. I accept the fact and move on. I loved Doom 2016 but I hated Doom Eternal. I loved Dark Souls 1 and 3 but I hated Elden Ring. Yet I did not face a large emotional hit from either of those disappointments. I accepted the fact as I saw it and moved on to something else. I don't get emotionally attached to IPs like that. Even Mass Effect which is my favourite gaming experience of all time I just accepted Andromeda being a garbage fire and moved on. So I wouldn't exactly say I trust developers. Whatever their track record is I have a good reason to believe they will continue along those lines. When big changes come, I will have reason to be skeptical about their future, but I will not make the assumption things will get worse. I spend based on what I've seen, not based on what I assume will happen. I don't see the point in extensive speculation.

How does this relate to PoE? I have seen the track record of how GGG monetizes, I believe they will continue doing it like they've done before. PoE 1 has certain issues which they have not been willing to address before, I have reason to believe they won't in the future. PoE 2 has issues but it doesn't have enough of a history to base a track record on so I will not make predictions. I will simply observe and I will be disappointed in them if they fail to improve it. But my disappointment won't come out of an expectation of them making it good. You see many a pessimist has used the saying "if you expect disappointment you can never be disappointed". But that sentiment has been proven wrong time and time again. There is always a new low people can reach, and you'll be disappointed again. Disappointment will always be possible. Expecting it will only ensure you have no hope. And hope is a valuable resource.

Reading that back again made me realise something. It's fucking weird to see such rationalisation of optimism and idealism. Most idealists and optimists aren't the most rational people. Anyway.

In short. Path of Exile 2 is in a bad state currently. I want it to be good, but I will not make predictions as I don't have enough data to base it on. Yet I will not expect it to be bad. I will not expect GGG to fuck me over because they don't have a track record of that.

I'm one of the quickest people you'll turn against you by making a bad move. But I'm also one of the quickest to turn again to your side when you start making good decisions again. You could call that being fickle. I just call it not making strong emotional attachments. Positive or negative.

Moving on. It's clear I misunderstood what you were saying about swords and shield. Apologies.

I suppose I struggle to view things from that angle. The mentality of getting stuck with one archetype. I am very far to the other end. I struggle to stay in one thing. I honestly have a bit of a problem with wanting far too much variety. I get easily bored when I stick to one thing. One of the things that I was very hopeful of in PoE 2. I HATED how much builds were centered around one button in PoE 1 and hoped PoE 2 would fix it. Well they have, very much so. But... Well we've already discussed my issues with it. I don't need to reiterate.

Point is, I always switch around between different playstyles, and it can be costly. Warframe is an exception to that and one of the things I love about it is how easy it is to switch from one build to another. Just take the mods out and switch others in. Change warframes. No hassle. As long as you have the core mods levelled up you can switch around with a bunch of different loadouts between every mission if you so wish. PoE doesn't really allow this. It is extremely costly to try and make a large variety of builds that are each capable of doing a variety of content. Which is why I was hoping for PoE 2 to allow more variation INSIDE one character. Which it does. I just haven't been able to utilize those systems yet.

Another misundestanding that has happened I think is that I'm not arguing for meta being static. If you don't want the top end of players to get completely out of hand you always need to nerf things. Which will create a shifting meta. I am all for a shifting meta. What I was arguing for was allowing more skills to be "playable". The reason for quotations there is going to become clear later.

I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was just poor word choice. I will correct it regardless. I didn't necessarily come here LOOKING for a fix. I came here because I had input to offer. As I said in my previous reply, if my input can provide GGG a perspective into the new player experience that helps them improve it, that's great. If not, then so be it. Nothing was lost as I enjoyed formulating my thoughts in text. So you can't even count it as time lost.

A lot of the end portion of your reply has to do with my inexperience in the game, and I just want to make it clear I'm not bothered by it at all. I know I'm not experienced and there is much I don't understand about the game. Which is why I said in my first message to take all my suggestions with a grain of salt. Many more experienced players can give likely better input into how to improve either game. I simply wanted to do my part. Offer my perspective as a newer player with less experience. Because I also believe people who have much experience in the game might easily forget what the starting experience is like and as such lack insight into how to improve that portion.

I absolutely agree with you that PoE is much more of a knowledge game than a mechanical skill game. And your welder analogy is apt. And I hope to learn from an experienced welder like yourself ;)

Though that brings another point to my mind. If PoE is difficult enough to be compared to a notoriously difficult occupation... Doesn't that already raise an issue? Who has the time and energy to dedicate to learn something that difficult as just a hobby? Especially when it's constantly changing. You could compare it to learning an instrument. Except the instrument doesn't change vastly every 3 months. You don't have any time limits in learning it. And what if you want to learn an instrument AND play PoE? And you have to work in addition to that. Barely any time left at that point. Not to even speak of the energy spent. I'm not saying PoE needs to be oversimplified either. The variety and complexity is my main draw to it. The game being so harshly punishing though is what makes all that complexity an insurmountable challenge without guidance. At least for me.

Oh whoops I completely forgot to include the portion where I explain why I put playable in quotations.

The reason is that it would seem from your reply that I am mistaken about how many skills are truly playable. I won't immediately concede that point as I don't see the vast majority of experienced players using them. It could just be that meta chasing is popular. That is... A pattern I've noticed in other games. And trade might also be pushing that aspect. Since trade economy makes the game pseudo-competitive.

If it really is true that the majority of skills in the game are usable in endgame and even satisfying to use, then many of my arguments are invalidated. I will need proof for that though before I concede it. Which is going to be difficult since satisfying it subjective. I will try to be fair and concede if I am provided examples of builds done on a budget for several undertuned skills that are capable of doing a variety of content with reasonable ease. I won't ask for oneshots or anything. As long as the mechanical execution requirements aren't crazy I will accept it. Even if I don't personally consider it satisfying.

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SpecMagi#5535 wrote:

(...) I have to say, there is not really a moment where I've found the gameplay of PoE 2 even a quarter of how satisfying PoE 1 gameplay is from the very beginning. (...)

Me im in the other wagon. I tried POE1 maybe for 6 hours, after i got dissopointed with d4, and i didnt find it that interesting. It wasnt bad, but the second to second gameplay didnt drag me in, and after those 6 hours i stopped. On the contrary POE2 second to second gameplay is engagin enough for me, its fun.

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SpecMagi#5535 wrote:

(...) GGG has made it clear they do not like the attitudes of many PoE 1 players when it comes to the campaign that it is just something you have to slog through to get to the fun part. But I don't see how making it more tedious helps with that. (...)

Thats one thing that seems to be repeating in POE1 fans reviews: this feeling that for them the campaign and overall gameplay is just somethign you must do, the real fun is endgame and loot. Another feeling is everything must go fast, 1-2-3 mobs killed, boss killed, becasue the real fun is the loot. Its very puzzling to me. I mean whtever float your boats, but its just very far from what i find fun.

Im a casual ARPG player (Played for real D1,D2, some D3) with little time (I play only on weekends with a friend, we are atm near end of act2) so i guess you should be more skilled then me. And we both play warrior which supposedly is the hardest atm. But for me the combat is great, and the campaign is just fun.I could go on with the campaign for 10 acts, if they were as good as Act1 (I feel act2 is good but slightly worse). Its not more tedious , its slower but its much more fun, because it requiers some micro, there is some challenge

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SpecMagi#5535 wrote:

(...)I currently also consider some bossfights to be severely unsatisfying to fight. Notably the end boss of act 1 (...)

I dont even understand how the end boss of act1 can be unsatisfying. We had such good time with my friend.The boss looks cool, got cool moves and mechanics, 2 phases, the music is insanely epic. We died maybe 10 times,but each time was fun, trying to change our loadout, sharing observation about his moves, adapting and when we finally beat him, it felt superb.
What was missing for you in that fight?

Hello FireStorm.

Most of what it comes down to in why I find PoE 2 much less satisfying than PoE 1 is that it's much slower, every cast takes longer and all damage is lower. I'm not sure about numbers. What I mean with damage is lower is that even basic enemies are much more of a hassle to kill in PoE 2 than PoE 1. I'm not necessarily even talking about difficulty here. I don't really die to normal enemies in PoE 2 or 1. I'm saying that when even the most basic enemy you fight takes a while to die it just makes the experience tedious in comparison.

As for your arguments about loot and endgame. Why I prefer mapping to campaign in PoE is not loot. I know it's a very popular lens to view the game from but it's not at all about that for me. For me the satisfying part of the game is see my build get finished. And by finished I don't mean that I have nothing more to upgrade. I mean that I have all my active skills and supports socketed. My build is doing what it's supposed to. That's what I look for in Path of Exile. To get several different builds to that point where I can choose any of them and go do some fights with them. The progression is what I'm after rather than just being rich in game.

I'm not one to argue EVERYTHING must go fast. I like mobility in combat and being able to kill basic enemies rather quickly makes the experience satisfying for me. Rares and unique enemies being more challenging to take down bring much needed stakes to the combat. I think that balance is very well executed in PoE 1. In PoE 2 even the most basic mob pack will take a while to kill and rares take fucking forever. That is not satisfying gameplay. At least for me.

Alright. I realise I forgot to explain why I find the end bosses of the first two acts very unsatisfying.

They are both simply fights of attrition. You don't get many flask refills and the bosses have massive hp pools. And especially the second act final boss offers extremely limited opportunities to attack so unless you're playing minions or DoT it is going to take FOREVER. When I have to dodge 5-6 attacks to get one of my own in I expect to see the reward. But when I fight these bosses I do such miniscule damage that I don't see my reward for my patience at all. And when I managed to beat the first act's end boss I was just relieved the frustrating and tedious experience was over. You see the same attacks so many times that it becomes very tedious to dodge them. It's a very fine line where a fight is a satisfying challenge and when it's a tedious slog. I would simply say the fights take too long. I know that's arbitrary but I don't have much else to offer you.

Thank you for providing solid argumentation and being civil. These discussions are thoroughly satisfying to me, and how you conduct yourself is vital in these conversations being fruitful.

Fair arguemnts.

I can imagine that if you dont feel danger of death and challenge from the mobs, they can feel just tedious, but imho the solution isnt making it quicker, but making it harder ,so you got a danger of dying and a chalenge at every step. Yes, for me fun is very much connected to challenge in video games.

That bit about builds is very interesting, its somethign new. I guess its hard for me to imagine this, I think you need to experience it youreself. But its an interesting point of view.

The last bit about the boss: sure, fighting sponges can get boring. On other hand, imho the bosses should have enough surivivability, so you have to fight with skill, not win by dumb luck. Aslo in longer fight there an element of strategy, preserving your resources. Like you said , its arbitrary.

Overall if it was me that described those feeling, i would think the game is just to easy, and the solution is to make it harder, not easier:):).

ITs not the first time that i see a similar point of view from POE1 fans, and the clashing point of view from poeple like me. Im not sure about the solution, maybe difficulty levels? But i guess it gets very complicated (expensive) in an ARPG with loot, and the number of things you must balance for each level.

Unfortunately I don't think difficulty options can really exist with trade being in the game. Either you make far too many splits in the community and none of the difficulty levels have enough people to foster a healthy trade economy. Or you make it so that the difficulty options are wasted dev time as people only play one of them.

Difficulty options could only exist in SSF that cannot be migrated from.

And I will reiterate that I'm not necessarily arguing for the game needing to be easier strictly. The game is already filled with oneshots. So one option is bumping up the damage just a tiny bit further, and giving the player a bit more cast speed and damage. Then the gameplay wouldn't feel quite as sluggish and the enemies would't feel quite as spongy. This is a huge balance shift that I'm advocating for, but honestly I think the game has quite a huge balancing issue.

I remember in Diablo 3 campaign there were in fact dificulty levels, and it was bqlanced by the fact the harder difficulties had more loot. I know it sounds bad for poeple like you who want an easier experience, but woudlnt it be balanced by the fact that you would be able to play much faster, therefore amounting in soemthing similar? Also for me personally they could make same loot for easy and harder mode (with the market balance being done around easy mode) and i would still play the harder mode, i dont care that i could get more loot in easy, i just want an engaging gameplay.