I agree that currect game design is focused on slower gameplay, but that's exactly what all the other arpgs on the market offer.
I just don't see why they want to throw away a unique and successful philosophy for the exact same generic arpg that absolutely everyone else produces.. nor can I understand why people want PoE2 to be another grim diablo epoch.
I'd like to see an examles.
Grim Dawn possibly? Its good, but its way too outdated and low budget game - no professional voicing, poor campaign, low replayability, outdated visuals/animations.
Diablo is even worse, abandoned for 25 years. It was good for its time 25 years ago, not anymore, it just lacking content, bosses, endgame, balance... Though the pace in D2 is perfect imo.
Havent played much LE, but it seems it is even more PoE1-ish than PoE2 currently. Same pew-pew with one button and oneshotting everything in proximity.
Last edited by Nikuksis#6962 on Oct 3, 2025, 6:09:55 AM
PoE2 was always supposed to be PoE1 right up until the very last minute decision to try and make it something else, which as we can clearly see was a mistake, it hasn't worked.
But if you want slow gameplay with multiple buttons you have Last Epoch, D3, D4, etc etc.
By the way, multi button builds in PoE are always significantly stronger than 1 button builds.
Anyway the next gen potential is there!
D3 / D4 is just bad designing from base off..This is farthest from engaging gameplay rather mobile.
One button smasher doesnt mean EXACTLY that you use one button but it means less buttons and less engaging combat
You're going to have to clarify what you mean by "engaging gameplay" because no part of PoE 2 is engaging.
From the very first act you can slaughter entire packs, all the bosses in the game are just a matter of rolling when prompted to do so.
I genuinely don't understand what you mean by "engaging gameplay" because the entire campaign is exactly the same gameplay as every other arpg on the market. Before the campaign is even finished absolutely nothing provides any thought.
Compare this to PoE1 where each decision matters, the big bosses will kill you if you're not on top of your game, movement is the difference between life and death.. now *that's* engaging gameplay!
D3 and D4 are so bad as alternatives to name... makes the rest of your argument seem weaker by default.
Also what don't people get about the concept of "engaging combat".
It just refers to making challenging content that requires thought, precision and a semblance of skill. Act 1-3 definietly have this, as long as you don't play with a guide or pick up one of the overtuned skills by accident.
Act 4 and the interlude is argueably way to easy, but just needs some tuning to also become engaging.
It is the endgame where items reach their pinacle that player power just escalates beyond what's reasonable and the only way to have the enemies keep up is by juicing them up with steroids all the way till it becomes a game of oneshot or be oneshot. That's the point where the game loses me and I become way to bored with the loop of mindlessly running around the map, pressing one button, get flashbanged by visual effects while oneshotting everything and rarely die to a pretty much invisible ground effect or smth. of the like.
As far as I can tell there are 2 big reasons why the game turns from fun and engaging to very tedious;
1; Skill interactions are waaay to limited. We should want to press more than 1 button, but the longer the game goes on and the more we specialise our build, the less skills are available to us in a viable state.
Also too many skills are just straight up "Ihit stuff and I deal damage" or different versions thereof. There are sooo few utility or defensive skills it's crazy. If everything is just a damage skill then you are actively encouraged to just boost one skill to deal damage and use just that. At best you have a single target and a multi target skill but besides this all that is required are buffs and debuffs that mostly also just exist to increase dps.
This is a baseline boring and very lazy design.
There are few exceptions to this where we have contagion + unearth or frostorb + ice nova skill combinations, which are legit nice synergies and fun to use. But they are still way to limiting. There needs to be way more generic skill synergie and people cannot be forced into predetermined skill combos, but this would require a lot of skills to be reworked.
Lets take frostorb + ice nova/ ball lightning + lightning warp for example. That's an awesome combo that allows a spell to be cast from a new position, awesome in concept imo. I don't get the limitation to 2 specific spells thought. Why can't ball lightning also cast spark from it's position? Why can't lightning warp also target orb of storms?
Don't just make 2 our of 20 very specific skills be interactive, have most skills interact with each other one way or another to open up true synergy playstyles, not forced combos that make people feel like their shoehorned into builds.
2; Enemy monster design is waaay to simplistic. Most mobs in the game have 1, maybe 2 moves, that's it and that is just not enough. This makes every single mob encounter the same and thus boring. White trash runs at us, white trash dies. Maybe white trash has a leap ability, so it gets a single hit in before it dies.
Mob strategies boil down to "rush the player fast and drown him in bodies", which actually works to well and thus forces everyone to focus on being able to quickly, without preparation, blow up 20+ models in one singular button press.
The usual abilities we see from monsters are leaps or charges, stationary on-death effects, ranged projectiles and summoning ads. This is just not enough to make combat engaging since there simply isn't much of a difference in how monster packs are engaged. 100 out of a 100 fights are the same and the biggest challenge out there is having to figure out a rares' modifiers in the thick of a monster wave to understand why it's not instantly dying.
There are 4 mobs I can name that actually do non-generic moves;
Shield undead in the crypt in act 1; because they can reflect projectiles which doesn't actually feel good or challenging at all, it's just annoying
Pillar wielding Undead dudes in the graveyard in act 1; they have a huge aoe slam, like the pillar monkey boss, and can at times cause scary scenarios in the early game because of it.
Skeleton Lich dudes in the desert that summon the clay giants and sand tornados. Not really scary but they also require an adjustment to generic fight tactics in the early game by creating hazards on the battlefield and giving us a reason to be priority targets.
Farridun Impalers in act 2, these guys actually have the craziest and coolest moveset, with crazy abilities and are generaly speaking just tough enemies in act2, if they didn't just die way to fast that is.
Sure the vaal enemies in act 3 can also cause a sudden difficulty spike, but unlike the named enemies they feel strong and scary because they just come with bigger numbers. Their tactics are the same generic ones though and thus do not feel challenging, just overtuned at times, but just as pathetic as everything else if you encounter them with good enough gear.
So yeah, generic mobs just need to do "more" and be more interesting. They can't just be reskins of the concept of "i shoot you", "i hit you" or "i go boom if killed".
Last edited by HTlYr6APGC#5834 on Oct 3, 2025, 6:12:39 AM
D3 and D4 are so bad as alternatives to name... makes the rest of your argument seem weaker by default.
Also what don't people get about the concept of "engaging combat".
It just refers to making challenging content that requires thought, precision and a semblance of skill. Act 1-3 definietly have this, as long as you don't play with a guide or pick up one of the overtuned skills by accident.
Act 4 and the interlude is argueably way to easy, but just needs some tuning to also become engaging.
It is the endgame where items reach their pinacle that player power just escalates beyond what's reasonable and the only way to have the enemies keep up is by juicing them up with steroids all the way till it becomes a game of oneshot or be oneshot. That's the point where the game loses me and I become way to bored with the loop of mindlessly running around the map, pressing one button, get flashbanged by visual effects while oneshotting everything and rarely die to a pretty much invisible ground effect or smth. of the like.
As far as I can tell there are 2 big reasons why the game turns from fun and engaging to very tedious;
1; Skill interactions are waaay to limited. We should want to press more than 1 button, but the longer the game goes on and the more we specialise our build, the less skills are available to us in a viable state.
Also too many skills are just straight up "Ihit stuff and I deal damage" or different versions thereof. There are sooo few utility or defensive skills it's crazy. If everything is just a damage skill then you are actively encouraged to just boost one skill to deal damage and use just that. At best you have a single target and a multi target skill but besides this all that is required are buffs and debuffs that mostly also just exist to increase dps.
This is a baseline boring and very lazy design.
There are few exceptions to this where we have contagion + unearth or frostorb + ice nova skill combinations, which are legit nice synergies and fun to use. But they are still way to limiting. There needs to be way more generic skill synergie and people cannot be forced into predetermined skill combos, but this would require a lot of skills to be reworked.
Lets take frostorb + ice nova/ ball lightning + lightning warp for example. That's an awesome combo that allows a spell to be cast from a new position, awesome in concept imo. I don't get the limitation to 2 specific spells thought. Why can't ball lightning also cast spark from it's position? Why can't lightning warp also target orb of storms?
Don't just make 2 our of 20 very specific skills be interactive, have most skills interact with each other one way or another to open up true synergy playstyles, not forced combos that make people feel like their shoehorned into builds.
2; Enemy monster design is waaay to simplistic. Most mobs in the game have 1, maybe 2 moves, that's it and that is just not enough. This makes every single mob encounter the same and thus boring. White trash runs at us, white trash dies. Maybe white trash has a leap ability, so it gets a single hit in before it dies.
Mob strategies boil down to "rush the player fast and drown him in bodies", which actually works to well and thus forces everyone to focus on being able to quickly, without preparation, blow up 20+ models in one singular button press.
The usual abilities we see from monsters are leaps or charges, stationary on-death effects, ranged projectiles and summoning ads. This is just not enough to make combat engaging since there simply isn't much of a difference in how monster packs are engaged. 100 out of a 100 fights are the same and the biggest challenge out there is having to figure out a rares' modifiers in the thick of a monster wave to understand why it's not instantly dying.
There are 4 mobs I can name that actually do non-generic moves;
Shield undead in the crypt in act 1; because they can reflect projectiles which doesn't actually feel good or challenging at all, it's just annoying
Pillar wielding Undead dudes in the graveyard in act 1; they have a huge aoe slam, like the pillar monkey boss, and can at times cause scary scenarios in the early game because of it.
Skeleton Lich dudes in the desert that summon the clay giants and sand tornados. Not really scary but they also require an adjustment to generic fight tactics in the early game by creating hazards on the battlefield and giving us a reason to be priority targets.
Farridun Impalers in act 2, these guys actually have the craziest and coolest moveset, with crazy abilities and are generaly speaking just tough enemies in act2, if they didn't just die way to fast that is.
Sure the vaal enemies in act 3 can also cause a sudden difficulty spike, but unlike the named enemies they feel strong and scary because they just come with bigger numbers. Their tactics are the same generic ones though and thus do not feel challenging, just overtuned at times, but just as pathetic as everything else if you encounter them with good enough gear.
So yeah, generic mobs just need to do "more" and be more interesting. They can't just be reskins of the concept of "i shoot you", "i hit you" or "i go boom if killed".
TL/DR: The game is too fast, especially in endgame for using combos and seeing monsters.
I must say currently monster are already there, they have different cool abilities and they are different and interesting. But the way it balanced now to be speedy screenblasting of random crowd of trash mobs all that huge work on designing them is wasted.
Last edited by Nikuksis#6962 on Oct 3, 2025, 6:22:52 AM
This is why I asked him for clarification on what he meant by "engaging gameplay"
And the reason I brought up the biggest ames in the arpg genre is to show how slow gameplay is the industry standard and that the speedy engaging gameplay of PoE1 is unique.
I agree that currect game design is focused on slower gameplay, but that's exactly what all the other arpgs on the market offer.
I just don't see why they want to throw away a unique and successful philosophy for the exact same generic arpg that absolutely everyone else produces.. nor can I understand why people want PoE2 to be another grim diablo epoch.
I'd like to see an examles.
Grim Dawn possibly? Its good, but its way too outdated and low budget game - no professional voicing, poor campaign, low replayability, outdated visuals/animations.
Diablo is even worse, abandoned for 25 years. It was good for its time 25 years ago, not anymore, it just lacking content, bosses, endgame, balance... Though the pace in D2 is perfect imo.
Havent played much LE, but it seems it is even more PoE1-ish than PoE2 currently. Same pew-pew with one button and oneshotting everything in proximity.
We were discussing the gameplay, in which PoE2 slow gameplay is exactly the same as every other arpg on the market, with PoE1 being the unique exception.
LE is quite big on combos and the speed and clearspeed is rather slow, exactly the same as PoE2.
I believe the facts speak for themselves and no further examples are required to prove this point.
As for campaign design, story, sound design etc there's no question that the most modern arpg has the most advanced sound design and graphics... but the story of PoE2 is quite meh, that said it's early access and hopefully they will be producing an engaging story to replace the currect place holder.
We were discussing the gameplay, in which PoE2 slow gameplay is exactly the same as every other arpg on the market, with PoE1 being the unique exception.
LE is quite big on combos and the speed and clearspeed is rather slow, exactly the same as PoE2.
Are talking about PoE2 act1-2 ssf gameplay with some combo skills? Or these stremer-style 150 MS screen explosions with random direction multi projectiles and 3 second bosses? I assume the second. And its like not slow gameplay, at all..
but the story of PoE2 is quite meh, that said it's early access and hopefully they will be producing an engaging story to replace the currect place holder.
I like the story, voicelines, dialogue and campaign design, and its definitely not a placeholder, but we are waiting for two more acts.
Of course if you're speedrunning it, you probably won't even notice anything and need just click asap on the required dialogue and run from one area to another.
What does “Engaging combat” even mean? Can we hear a full explanation just once? Since people keep bringing up 1-button builds as a complaint, I guess “Engaging combat” must mean 2+ button builds? If that’s the case, then isn’t it already available right now? On top of that, the game actually rewards you for pressing extra buttons — more DPS and so on. So what exactly is the problem? That people prefer to play using just one button? Well, sorry, but most players enjoy zipping across the screen and pressing as few buttons as possible, because for them it’s way more fun than juggling 2–3–4–5 buttons, even if doing so gives higher DPS or other benefits. In the end, if “MORE FUN” for you is rolling and dodging, then just run through the campaign again or play a Souls-like. Why drag that crap into PoE2 endgame?
I agree, but balance is bad. Pressing extra buttons should be rewarded with 5-20x more dmg and currently is rewarded with 1,5-3x more dmg. So there is no point to press extra buttons.
+
There should be more skills like Hammer of the Gods but dmg should be way higher for channelling and on cooldown skills. Currently HotG deal just 3x more dmg than single leap slam (1520% of base vs 449% of base). It should be 10-20x more dmg and people would bother to use HotG. Channeling skills should deal 10-20x more dmg than spark/LA like skills because movement is everything in this game. Also rhoa is stupid mechanic that makes this game 100x harder to balance.
Last edited by LuciferFearsomeP#0586 on Oct 3, 2025, 7:04:15 AM
We were discussing the gameplay, in which PoE2 slow gameplay is exactly the same as every other arpg on the market, with PoE1 being the unique exception.
LE is quite big on combos and the speed and clearspeed is rather slow, exactly the same as PoE2.
Are talking about PoE2 act1-2 ssf gameplay with some combo skills? Or these stremer-style 150 MS screen explosions with random direction multi projectiles and 3 second bosses? I assume the second. And its like not slow gameplay, at all..
but the story of PoE2 is quite meh, that said it's early access and hopefully they will be producing an engaging story to replace the currect place holder.
I like the story, voicelines, dialogue and campaign design, and its definitely not a placeholder, but we are waiting for two more acts.
Of course if you're speedrunning it, you probably won't even notice anything and need just click asap on the required dialogue and run from one area to another.
If acts 1 and 2 are what you consider good gameplay then I highly recommend you try Last Epoch, Grim Dawn, and Diablo 3/4 as they are extremely similar both in terms of game speed, ability options,player skill requirements, and decision making. No distinguishable differences beyond graphics.
I truly hope you're wrong about the currect campaign not being a placeholder.. the story is rather generic and predictable.
In any case, the fact remains that PoE2 would be better served by returning to its roots, for those who enjoy mindless easy mode they can get that from every other arpg on the market.
If acts 1 and 2 are what you consider good gameplay then I highly recommend you try Last Epoch, Grim Dawn, and Diablo 3/4 as they are extremely similar both in terms of game speed, ability options,player skill requirements, and decision making. No distinguishable differences beyond graphics.
I'm sorry, Diablo 3 you said? Have you even seen its current state?
LE is way more poe1 like from what i've seen.
GD is good as i already said but both D2(R) and GD are way outdated.
I truly hope you're wrong about the currect campaign not being a placeholder.. the story is rather generic and predictable.
I truly hope current endgame map balance and "diffculty" is placeholder and was copied from poe1 due to lacking of time. And they will make a serious rework to this zomming gameplay in future.
In any case, the fact remains that PoE2 would be better served by returning to its roots, for those who enjoy mindless easy mode they can get that from every other arpg on the market.
I do not understand why you want poe2 turning into poe1, while it just have worse performance, much less content, much less skills, especially viable skills and items and builds?
There's already PoE1 which does all of this 1000 times better with better performance, and its still having its updates, leagues and its not abandoned.
Mindless easy gameplay is in current endgame in poe2, when you just playing connect the dots(oops they removed dots) and not looking at the screen, only map and colorful neversink's loot-filter. And act1-2 is harder in terms of gameplay which is funny, you'll actually fight mobs and bosses for at least several minutes unlike these 2 second bossfights in maps.
If acts 1 and 2 are what you consider good gameplay then I highly recommend you try Last Epoch, Grim Dawn, and Diablo 3/4 as they are extremely similar both in terms of game speed, ability options,player skill requirements, and decision making. No distinguishable differences beyond graphics.
I'm sorry, Diablo 3 you said? Have you even seen its current state?
LE is way more poe1 like from what i've seen.
GD is good as i already said but both D2(R) and GD are way outdated.
I truly hope you're wrong about the currect campaign not being a placeholder.. the story is rather generic and predictable.
I truly hope current endgame map balance and "diffculty" is placeholder and was copied from poe1 due to lacking of time. And they will make a serious rework to this zomming gameplay in future.
In any case, the fact remains that PoE2 would be better served by returning to its roots, for those who enjoy mindless easy mode they can get that from every other arpg on the market.
I do not understand why you want poe2 turning into poe1, while it just have worse performance, much less content, much less skills, especially viable skills and items and builds?
There's already PoE1 which does all of this 1000 times better with better performance, and its still having its updates, leagues and its not abandoned.
Mindless easy gameplay is in current endgame in poe2, when you just playing connect the dots(oops they removed dots) and not looking at the screen, only map and colorful neversink's loot-filter. And act1-2 is harder in terms of gameplay which is funny, you'll actually fight mobs and bosses for at least several minutes unlike these 2 second bossfights in maps.
Again, when I mention D3/4, LE, etc I am referring to the slow gameplay, the lack of engaging gameplay, and the multibutton approach they share with PoE2
Having played LE quite extensively I can conclusively say that it is nothing at all like PoE1.
The endgame of PoE2 is indeed in a sorry state, largely because it lacks the engaging gameplay of PoE1. However all arpgs are essentially grinding for the sake of grinding, that is the very heart and soul of the genre.
Increasing the speed of both movement and clearspeed is indeed essential for the longevity of PoE2, without that crucial change there is absolutely no difference between it and every other arpg.
Again, enjoying slow gameplay is fine, you're welcome to enjoy it and I encourage you to play what you enjoy.. however that itchy can be scratched by every arpg on the market.
PoE is unique and should stay unique.
Originally we were told this would be an expansion/upgrade to PoE and they should uphold that. New graphics, new skills, new maps and bosses, etc.
Can you please explain why you want PoE2 to be the exact same as every other arpg on the market? As you say, those slow brainless easy node games already exist for those who enjoy that playstyle.
But for those who enjoy fast, action-packed engaging gameplay there is only PoE.
