So how do we feel about Keepers of the Flame efter a few days?

Admittedly I didn't word the point about pinnacle bosses properly. What I meant was that you don't reach level 100 doing bosses. It is not part of the on-going process of developing your character which happens in mapping and mapping-adjacent content such as Delve, Heist or Sanctum. Being underprepared for a fight or making mistakes used to be very punishing if you had already made progress on your XP bar in the past, and many players would choose to not do bosses until they had reached a safe XP area.

That was a good change to encourage players to engage with bosses when they felt up to the task, not when they didn't fear to lose XP when they f- up.

However, that is separate from the general point about XP penalty in mapping as I explained, and I hope we can move past that now that I explained my stance on it properly.

Now, to the actual discussion at hand:

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Broadsword#0971 wrote:

Without de-leveling the choice is more like:
- Get lvl95. Ignore the rest of the levels. Do fun content and super juice maps and power clear for big profit. Get several divs per hour and buy a weapon that triples my damage. If I die I lose nothing because I don't want to level anyway and you can't go below 0%.
- Get lvl95. Insist on leveling up. Spend divs on XP-loss protection. Lose some XP still because RNG can be like that sometimes. Do safe content, boring, grindy, the same stuff I've been doing since the start of the league (and every league before that for several years). Make 1div a week. Finally get that cherished +10STR node I was looking for when I level up.

You cannot de-level in Path of Exile. You lose progression towards the next level. I grinded level 100 on my Hierophant running juiced up Harbinger + Beyond maps with 60% Delirium as well. It's a fast method that is still profitable in terms of currency generated. It was a safe method for me because my character was already very strong & tanky. I didn't rip a single time on this grind.

I find it interesting how you characterize the reward for leveling up just being an attribute node when the reality is that most builds will reach another jewel socket, a mastery, be able to fit another Runegraft, or make changes to the tree via cluster jewels. Extra levels provide flexibility and power beyond attribute nodes. Extra levels are very valuable, and your attempt to make it sound like it's no big deal to get the extra levels is quite disingenuous.

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Broadsword#0971 wrote:

Yeah it's a pretty divisive topic. It's probably not going away, it's endemic to PoE1 like loot drops, nerfs and other stuff.
Just like matchmaking and cheats to competitive FPS games.

And the same arguments get regurgitated over and over again without anything new being added almost ever.

And it's happening again. In your next sentence you bring up Hardcore mode as a replacement for XP penalty. We're not discussing Hardcore, we're talking about Softcore and the implications that removing XP penalty has on that mode. Why are you pivoting like that? And that's not the only disingenuous thing in that paragraph. You also claim I don't have a solution for "my own problem" as if I ever admitted it was one. I don't think it is. In fact, XP penalty is the solution to the problem of tink-brained SC players wanting to get to level 100 for free.

Again: it's not on me to provide a solution for a "problem" I don't even acknowledge. That burden lies with you, as you advocate for a fundamental system to be ripped out of the game without offering any insight whatsoever. And just like that, this debate is going the same way it always goes.

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Broadsword#0971 wrote:

And to be clear I'm fine with XP-penalty staying. I'm fine with playing more content for free until I'm bored if other people support it no matter what. I was just discussing about what another user pointed out as a form to support the motion and make my feedback clear just like you can make your feedback opposed to mine to give the company a better notion of what the audience wants.

You could have come around with that qualifying statement at the start and I wouldn't have riffed on you like that. I get the whole devil's advocate thing you got going here but I strongly stand on principle when it comes to XP penalty. If there's an actually good suggestion on how it could be replaced I am open to hearing it of course

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rob_korn#1745 wrote:

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Elua#0230 wrote:

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SloppyJoker#3490 wrote:

What exactly is the point of this? You get an offering for any of the trials anyway. Doesn't matter if you run the same trial 50 times, you get 50 offerings to run 50 uber labs. lol

Some builds dont work well utility you got uber lab complete points. In this league I got bad luck and finished it at 92 lvl because I got 8 times in row only Trial of Crippling Grief. This is so annoying and bad design.

Hum, you only need to find 1 trial to have access to Uber Lab, looks like you didn't know that ?

WTF? Rly? omg

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

You can do that if you are happy with your current level. If you remove the XP penalty you remove every incentive to not juice to the max, leading to even shorter retention span.

Honestly, if you need Sanctum to level to 100 you need to grow a pair, and maybe learn how to build a proper character.

Most of the players are, and if they are not they either use well rolled maps, timeless conflict or pure level carries, and yes even sanctum, even it that would take 20 years. So your additional "retention" is just some small lie you tell yourself. there is no additional gameplay happening, its more like farming blood aqueducts for chaos recipe or something.

And its irrelevant if you think this approach lacks "balls" it the most done approach. I prefer running abyss or this league harb+beyond for leveling, but its still a leveling build even if the danger is maybe there.

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tsunamikun#0433 wrote:

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

You can do that if you are happy with your current level. If you remove the XP penalty you remove every incentive to not juice to the max, leading to even shorter retention span.

Honestly, if you need Sanctum to level to 100 you need to grow a pair, and maybe learn how to build a proper character.

Most of the players are, and if they are not they either use well rolled maps, timeless conflict or pure level carries, and yes even sanctum, even it that would take 20 years. So your additional "retention" is just some small lie you tell yourself. there is no additional gameplay happening, its more like farming blood aqueducts for chaos recipe or something.

And its irrelevant if you think this approach lacks "balls" it the most done approach. I prefer running abyss or this league harb+beyond for leveling, but its still a leveling build even if the danger is maybe there.

Look at any game you want. Players will always find a way to cheese their way to a goal, be it abusing loopholes in boss behaviour, or other shenanigans. That is entirely unsurprising and in no shape or form denies anything I said.

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Look at any game you want. Players will always find a way to cheese their way to a goal, be it abusing loopholes in boss behaviour, or other shenanigans. That is entirely unsurprising and in no shape or form denies anything I said.

Well I actually don't believe removing the penalty will impact retention rate in any way, but without actually trying that we can never be sure.
It a bit like harvest back then, or crucible; gain without many consequences increase retention, not the other way around.
Also your argument that players need to build characters to level in high juiced setups. They don't. They just grind along and skip your step. And then they go die in hyper juiced maps for the loot.

Even you do it. You play harb+beyond+deli too for leveling, its quite save to do so and also fast. Not as good as old breach but what is. So in the best sense the penalty just adds an aspect to the gameplay in specific atlas builds that support it. But it doesn't force or even encourage most players to change anything on their character. Hell, dying a lot doesn't even encourage them to actually really read the guide they are following. sad but true as they say.

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

You cannot de-level in Path of Exile.

Hence the "without de-leveling...". Come on now.

"

I grinded level 100

Doesn't matter. I can level to 100 with a cyclone slayer by accident. My claim is not that it's hard to get to level 100 or that not dying is impossible.
There's several factors that can lead to a death though. One being bad RNG, another one being that controllers in PoE1 are buggy.

"

I find it interesting how you characterize the reward for leveling up just being an attribute node

I said +10STR like I could've said +30 life or 12% increased melee damage. It doesn't matter. The effects extra levels have after a threshold are marginal.
The point is that all builds have a level cut in which they've got everything they need (aside from a handful of exceptions like Blood Sacrament or maybe minion builds). I use "lvl95" because it's a round number but, obviously, if lvl96 is going to give you an important mastery you're going to get that level too. But lvl99 to lvl100 alone is already a mindlessly boring and unnecessary grind.
Do I want to get a new notable that might add 50k extra damage? Yes please. But by grinding for an entire week? No thanks, I'll take the extra 10M damage from gear.

"

And the same arguments get regurgitated over and over again without anything new being added almost ever.

This drives the point home for me though. Many people having the same issue for the same reasons? Well, sounds worth looking into it.

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And it's happening again

And it will keep on happening because that's the nature of open forums. You may have talked to a lot of people about this but I haven't. I'm not a regular here.

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We're not discussing Hardcore, we're talking about Softcore

No, maybe you're framing it that way but I'm talking in the context of PoE1 and all it has to offer. My perspective would drastically change if HC didn't exist.
You see, if there was only one mode I'd take XP penalty as a concession. I'd still be against it, but I'd somewhat understand it. Mostly because I'd understand that some people want a more hardcore experience and some people don't want to deal with what that entails and XP penalty, while faulty, could be a half-way measure where nobody really wins but at least there's a gesture of conciliation.
I haven't heard a single argument for XP penalty in SC that's not solved in a much more efficient way by permadeath. If HC didn't exist, I'd understand maybe permadeath would alienate too many people but since there's separate modes I see no excuse.

"

You also claim I don't have a solution for "my own problem" as if I ever admitted it was one. I don't think it is. In fact, XP penalty is the solution to the problem of tink-brained SC players wanting to get to level 100 for free.

I don't know what you refer to when you mention "the problem". You said the following:
"I don't think I have seen a single good suggestion how the XP penalty could be replaced in a meaningful way without debasing XP as a concept entirely or diminishing the achievement of leveling up and progressing your character".
If we understand the same for what's the problem you present then I think I already answered. XPPenalty doesn't solve any of this.
It doesn't keep glasscannons from going glasscannon (it's not as good of a deterrant as permadeath or de-leveling), XP will always end up being irrelevant (by the time someone gets lvl100 or by the time their gear outperforms any further lvling) so you're only delaying the inevitable if anything. Leveling is very relevant throughout the entire game with or without XPP, which is only a pain in the A in the last few levels (before that it's negligible). And all that without mentioning how some people just alt-f4 before dying (now there's pause they probably just relog), which is a statement on itself of rejection of this mechanic.

Also it's crazy that you call people who enjoy a game a certain way "tink-brained" when a lot of these folks probably have tough jobs and just want to get home and relax. It's mad disrespectful when their gameplay doesn't affect you. It's not like they're grifters or trolls in coop or competitive games.

"

And just like that, this debate is going the same way it always goes.

Ask yourself it if might be because of you, because you're the one arguing about it in a negative way and pushing the conversation into the framework of whatever arguments you've had before, closing any different venue from the get-go and resorting to dismissive name-calling.

"

Again: it's not on me to provide a solution for a "problem" I don't even acknowledge. That burden lies with you

No, not really. My claim is that XP penalty is a placebo. If it fixes nothing, its absence breaks nothing.

The only "burden" here is for GGG's to decide what to do with the feedback. There's been plenty of good faith changes lately (even things that may seem small like letting controller players swap currency spam with a button) and it's up to them to decide what to do with which things. They know their stats and resources, they know what they're willing to risk.
Pitching ideas to revamp XP and leveling could be interesting if there was a back and forth between GGG and the community or if the community did it just for fun.

One is not happening at the moment (I don't say it as a complaint, it's just that we're not engaged with the staff at the moment, but I've seen the backs and forths with streamers somewhat representing the community and that's not something you see from many companies I'd say) and the other one is impossible when you channel the conversation into a negativity rant.

Either way I said my piece and I think I derailed the original topic a bit too much.
Cheers.

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Broadsword#0971 wrote:

Either way I said my piece and I think I derailed the original topic a bit too much.
Cheers.

Its all good!

In general the topic was about how we feel this league, expanding on that now and then to make a point come across as intented is needed :)



For the future i would really enjoy to get more story on the breach / dreamer etc.

It is a fun thing they got going on i have to say with being able to expand on lore in "the past" that is PoE 1 and then how it turnes out in PoE 2.

So i hope for more on where all this will go, if anything i think Keepers of the Flame has done a great job on worldbuilding!


But i hope for the future that the Hives/Forts we go inside, will just be a seperat map and its just like that completely with 100% focus on breach stuff.

After doing it some more, i just see myself skipping the Tower def / Blight-esk part of it. But the hit-thehand-kill-all-fill-meter spawn something i still enjoy. And i feel it still combos well with the old stuff, being that well, it is the old thing we use to do :)


The tree is very cool! But the more you play, i feel the more you think, "why is ground loot still there? The tree does give me all i need". And thats not good, and crating in general isnt needed when the blood provides alot!

But maybe it could just be remade a little, and maybe also add in the breach atlas points on it that was moved from the normal atlast, if you think like this.

We have the normal atlas, but now, we have "Sub-atlas-tree´s" depending on what we want to invest in.

So there could be a point on the Atlas-tree that will connect to this tree that you unlock then.

And in general, i would not be surprised to see GGG do something like this in the future.

We had the passive tree.

Then we had the Atlas map, and the atlas map, got a atlas tree.

Then they eventually expands on it so from the atlas tree, there will be connections to "sub tree´s" for breach, delve, synth, specific bosses, strong boxes, etc etc etc.

They could really expand on it like crazy. Giving every single mechanic its own sub tree connected to the atlas tree to provide an even greater diversity in atlas strats and playstyles. And really be able to dig in deep on a type of league mechanic.



Like Neverwinter Nights had:

level up. Pick a Base weapon type to specc, then you have sub weapons under it to specc, then you had excotic weapons under the sub weapons specialization.


Atleast in my head and on paint doodles this looks/sounds like something GGG would go for in time, in a way to be able to cram in well:



"Hi. Im Mark.

And yes, Its another tree!

BUT hold on! Is that another tree? And another? And another?

-Insert streamers hype faces here-

We added 9 sub trees now connected to the atlast passive tree that revolves around 9 different specific game mechanics.

Making it so, for example, your dream of putting 80%+ of your atlas passive points into Izaros Lab making it into a UBER UBER Endgame lab a reality! And unlocking access to the core, of Izaros Lab and his true form!

Now this was just a sneakpeak of the new content that can be unlocked via the new sub-trees on the atlas passive tree. The rest you will all have to see and test out for yourselfs!

We look forward to your reactions, and how you will break the game this time Exiles!"


-Path of Exile 1 -- Explorers of the Atlas goes live next week on Friday!-

So far async trade is huge QOL, thing that make me think about buying supporter pack.
If GGG will remove exp penalty I will buy packs 100% for sure.