Why Large Maps Don’t Work in Path of Exile 2 (aka Where are the roads?)

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Vergoth42#2613 wrote:

Personally, I like the fact that when I launch a map, I know it's going to be a medium-length experience. I hate the idea of ​​a map being like fast food, quickly consumed, quickly digested, so you can quickly move on to the next one. That's compulsive consumption; it's simply unhealthy.

I’m totally with you on this. My post was not about how long it takes to finish a map. I would not even mind if it took twice as long. The issue is with the layout and flow, not the time required to complete it.

Layout and flow is a pretty good thing to focus on rather than size/time to complete.

I don't mind spending a while in zone if I'm having a good time.

What I don't like is backtracking to find straggler mobs where 99% of my time is spent traversing back and forth over "conquered" ground between packs that are in weird dead-end twists or alcoves.

That said, I don't think that this means we need maps like ledge, or if anyone remembers: poe1 "gorge runs".

Nothing wrong with a maze-like layout as long as the backtracking is "built-in". Maybe similar to the idea of how you would traverse a figure-8 shaped zone, but obviously more intricate and still maintaining the same "uninterrupted flow" capability.

You can actually do this on some of the large maps we already have, like Channel, once you understand how the layout goes. It's actually my favourite map - there's always tons of monsters, I don't have to back track, and it has the terracotta room lol. I'll admit that before you get the layout down, it can absolutely feel like a shitty large map with lots of backtracking, so maybe there's still something there to improve.

i'v played through the campaign on 4 different characters,

There are some maps that are a maze full of dead ends like the Titan map from act 2

Even in the first few campaign runs, I was relieved to go down stairs and it be a simple player trap that surrounds me with beetles.

I get more satisfaction from that 1 moment, than scouring a map looking for an objective for 15 minutes like the desert map outside of camp in the interlude.

Endgame could use some fun moments like the ones included in the campaign. I do think that a lot of the empty space should be cut out or areas that don't provide anything interesting for gameplay. There also needs to be more checkpoints on some maps.

I truly believe someone responsible for maps at GGG was just bored out of their mind after being done with their job, had nothing else to do and just started adding random stuff to maps that were already ready

Not going to mention campaign after act 3 that is an abomination with the layouts people are tired to bash already, just take a look at one of the end game maps like Burial Bog



Every single "dot" in the map is an uncrossable puddle of water, creating this cheese layout

Not only is it silly that my character that defeated an eldritch god like Xesht can't even cross this little puddle of water, they have no reason to exist aside from being annoying

This is just one example. Probably 2/3 of the maps in the endgame are similarly designed like this, although maybe not to the same extent as the monstrosity above

A lot of the short dead ends are there for procedural generation, so anything can be attached to the ends at random.

I don't think it's that bad, It just needs to be cut down a little bit in size.
They can't go wrong adding more events and points of interest as well.

So far the most fun aspects of the maps are the player traps, minibosses and the occasional unique strongboxes.

It would help if we could see checkpoints on the minimap from further away.
Also any points of interest or objectives should all have a symbol as well.

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"It would help if we could see checkpoints on the minimap from further away."

You can do it with this modifier:
"Light Radius
Your Light Radius determines the distance from your character which will be illuminated in dark areas, and the radius within which terrain and points of interest are revealed on the map."

Well, I'm not sure it's worth prioritizing this modifier... LOL.

More seriously, I think all this friction during map exploration was carefully considered by devs.
The goal isn't to create a walk in the park or simple scenery, but rather to make the map an integral part of the gameplay :
- Do you find the maps long and annoying? => Yes, that's the point. How is that different from a boss with a lot of health that is long and "annoying" to beat?

I think you need to change your mindset and consider that moving around the map is currently gameplay and not an issue to be solved.

PS:

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Vergoth42#2613 wrote:

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"It would help if we could see checkpoints on the minimap from further away."

You can do it with this modifier:
"Light Radius
Your Light Radius determines the distance from your character which will be illuminated in dark areas, and the radius within which terrain and points of interest are revealed on the map."

Well, I'm not sure it's worth prioritizing this modifier... LOL.

More seriously, I think all this friction during map exploration was carefully considered by devs.
The goal isn't to create a walk in the park or simple scenery, but rather to make the map an integral part of the gameplay :
- Do you find the maps long and annoying? => Yes, that's the point. How is that different from a boss with a lot of health that is long and "annoying" to beat?

I think you need to change your mindset and consider that moving around the map is currently gameplay and not an issue to be solved.

PS:

Spoiler

Perhaps consider equipping a talisman as your secondary weapon to transform into a werewolf and gain +30% movement speed... It helps.

Great point, but
You can and will grow stronger and more capable of facing the spongy boss, that's part of your progression;
The game will never give you a way to grow faster and more capable of dealing with the boring maraton through swampy marshes and hilly forests.

And maybe "long and annoying" isn't the design they should target when most other games aim towards being fun.

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GabrielCorso#5386 wrote:

Great point, but

That's quite the stretch.

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mattia2103#3008 wrote:

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GabrielCorso#5386 wrote:

Great point, but

That's quite the stretch.

Learned from the best ;)

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Vergoth42#2613 wrote:

"

"It would help if we could see checkpoints on the minimap from further away."

You can do it with this modifier:
"Light Radius
Your Light Radius determines the distance from your character which will be illuminated in dark areas, and the radius within which terrain and points of interest are revealed on the map."

Well, I'm not sure it's worth prioritizing this modifier... LOL.

More seriously, I think all this friction during map exploration was carefully considered by devs.
The goal isn't to create a walk in the park or simple scenery, but rather to make the map an integral part of the gameplay :
- Do you find the maps long and annoying? => Yes, that's the point. How is that different from a boss with a lot of health that is long and "annoying" to beat?

I think you need to change your mindset and consider that moving around the map is currently gameplay and not an issue to be solved.

PS:

Spoiler

Perhaps consider equipping a talisman as your secondary weapon to transform into a werewolf and gain +30% movement speed... It helps.

Just because it's intended gameplay doesn't make it good design...

A boss can be meaningful because it tests player mechanics, forces resouce management, creates tension, good bosses are memorable, punish mistakes if the boss has enough damage (which is one of the reasons defense isn't so strong unless you go out of your way to be overgeared, and that's also fine), has counterplay, can be overcome by skill which is rewarding etc

If you take my example of the burial bog cheese layout tho, those puddles of water do absolute nothing other than being annoying and slowing the player down. It doesn't add any depth to the game, no alternate paths, don't reward any exploration because there's nothing to explore

Being a design choice doesn't mean it's a well thought or well executed one. It's no surprise map layout is one of the biggest complains about the game, although less nowadays because of sprint

Let me say it again a little more clearly: map layout and the pointless friction it creates was/is a shitty point of the game. The "change your mindset" argument is weak because GGG themselves acknowledge it's shit, and that's why they gave you sprint

What is being discussed here isn't if it's shit or not, what is being discussed is how could they make it less shitty or if more should be done aside from just giving the player sprint

There’s a huge difference between meaningful friction and this empty and annoying friction which is what we have now. If I wanted to test my patience on maps I would be playing solitaire or something, not an arpg