Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting

Yesterday i joined DatModz stream, and he was talking just about how harvest is good for new players.

I did ask a question, "what about those people, who says - Harvest was worst league, cause my RMT league revenue dropped hard. Since newbies can craft items by themselves, instead of buying currency from my via RMT"

One guy did asnwer me "Hey, it's just me last league. But i don't care that much, cause i'll be rich in next league too, thx RMT"



I see this whole change made cause of 1 single reason:

Help nolifers make money with RMT.

Shouldn't you ban those people, instead of helping them?

It's frustrating reading these posts knowing Harvest will still be OP next league. I don't know if you guys just don't know how to craft or want 6 T1s or riot. Because I tested many items at emulator using only crafts Chris says is still allowed and common currency and you are still capable of making tons of GG items. Harvest will be used. Used to add influences on your very deterministic double influenced chests by locking prefixs and spamming influences til you get the right suffixs. Used to make GG regular rare weapons and Jewels which still allow very deterministic adds. Yes it will cost more because you gotta scour more but huge potential is still here.

As usual when a nerf comes this is an overreaction. You will see. That's probably why devs are like not responding it's the same story every nerf and tiresome.

"

Zepepsico wrote:

"

bauermayers wrote:

It's amazing how you got everything wrong. The point of Harvest is not making OP builds, but to make non meta/weird/just for fun builds more viable. It's about build diversity. It's not that players didn't like the game before, but they introduced a mechanic that is fun for the vast majority of players, including casuals, non casuals, trade, ssf, and are taking it away. In a league that had a ton of server issues, graphic "improvments", issues, Harvest was one the thing pretty much EVERYBODY was happy about. What do they do? Adress the server problems? No. Fix bugs? No. Take away the one thing nobody has a problem with? FUCK YEAH!!!!!

I am afraid your perception can't really stand against the facts:

"

League Launch peak Weekend after Drop
Harvest 127k 81k -36%
Delirium 133k 100k -25%
Metamorph 118k 96k -19%
Blight 75k 54k -28%
Legion 114k 95k -17%
Synthesis 113k 77k -32%
Betrayal 123k 106k -14%
Delve 76k 65k -14%
Incursion 96k 83k -14%
Bestiary 82k 68k -17%
Abyss 70k 63k -10%
Harbinger 98k 90k -8%
Legacy 64k 53k -17%
Breach 47k 43k -9%
Essence 33k 31k -6%
Prophecy 26k 22k -15%
Perandus 37k 32k -14%
Talisman 22k 20k -9%
Warbands / Tempest 32k 29k -9%
Torment / Bloodlines 14k 12k -15%
Rampage / Beyond 25k 20k -20%
Ambush / Invasion 20k 17k -15%
Domination / Nemesis 34k 32k -6%

On Steam, Harvest had the worst retention numbers (not sure if Heist was worst or better). Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/hi47ig/harvest_league_broke_historical_records_for/

If this league is a success, it's because of the Atlas rework (it's fun), the Maven missions (it's fun), Ritual (it's fun and more mobs and more loot!). Yes some players like, adore, worship harvest, but the limited evidence we have is that players absolutely hated the original Harvest league.

Someone already debunked you, but just to point out how you're already making excuses if Ritual retention numbers are positive: "it's because of the expansion, and the expansion alone because reasons".

Lol, Poe serious business, no fun allowed.

I for my part managed before Harvest and would manage after it...but why...just why.

Ever thought about the fact that maybe people do not quit because they can have noice things, but because of the exact opposite. Or is that the famous "hardcore" aspect of the game? "You want nice things, fine give up your life , say goodbye to friends and family and get grinding.."

If hardcore means nolife, then i don't care for that "hardcore" experience.

By no means are perfect items needed to beat the game content, but is it so bad to be able to create a glimpse of those Uber-items for oneself without having to play the game to farm currency and pay a crafter for his items..Plus more people start to actually show interest in crafting.

I like the game, but not on a " Have my soul and praised be thee for the will to endure the grind and may thou bless me with lucky slams" level.

"

Aim_Deep wrote:

It's frustrating reading these posts knowing Harvest will still be OP next league. I don't know if you guys just don't know how to craft or want 6 T1s or riot. Because I tested many items at emulator using only crafts Chris says is still allowed and common currency and you are still capable of making tons of GG items. Harvest will be used. Used to add influences on your very deterministic double influenced chests by locking prefixs and spamming influences til you get the right ones. Used to make GG weapons and Jewels. Yes it will cost more because you gotta scour more but huge potential is still here.

As usual when a nerf comes this is an overreaction. You will see. That's probably why devs are like not responding it's the same story every nerf and tiresome.

"You will see"

Those will see, who will continue playing.

"

bauermayers wrote:

"

Zepepsico wrote:

"

bauermayers wrote:

It's amazing how you got everything wrong. The point of Harvest is not making OP builds, but to make non meta/weird/just for fun builds more viable. It's about build diversity. It's not that players didn't like the game before, but they introduced a mechanic that is fun for the vast majority of players, including casuals, non casuals, trade, ssf, and are taking it away. In a league that had a ton of server issues, graphic "improvments", issues, Harvest was one the thing pretty much EVERYBODY was happy about. What do they do? Adress the server problems? No. Fix bugs? No. Take away the one thing nobody has a problem with? FUCK YEAH!!!!!

I am afraid your perception can't really stand against the facts:

"

League Launch peak Weekend after Drop
Harvest 127k 81k -36%
Delirium 133k 100k -25%
Metamorph 118k 96k -19%
Blight 75k 54k -28%
Legion 114k 95k -17%
Synthesis 113k 77k -32%
Betrayal 123k 106k -14%
Delve 76k 65k -14%
Incursion 96k 83k -14%
Bestiary 82k 68k -17%
Abyss 70k 63k -10%
Harbinger 98k 90k -8%
Legacy 64k 53k -17%
Breach 47k 43k -9%
Essence 33k 31k -6%
Prophecy 26k 22k -15%
Perandus 37k 32k -14%
Talisman 22k 20k -9%
Warbands / Tempest 32k 29k -9%
Torment / Bloodlines 14k 12k -15%
Rampage / Beyond 25k 20k -20%
Ambush / Invasion 20k 17k -15%
Domination / Nemesis 34k 32k -6%

On Steam, Harvest had the worst retention numbers (not sure if Heist was worst or better). Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/hi47ig/harvest_league_broke_historical_records_for/

If this league is a success, it's because of the Atlas rework (it's fun), the Maven missions (it's fun), Ritual (it's fun and more mobs and more loot!). Yes some players like, adore, worship harvest, but the limited evidence we have is that players absolutely hated the original Harvest league.

Someone already debunked you, but just to point out how you're already making excuses if Ritual retention numbers are positive: "it's because of the expansion, and the expansion alone because reasons".

dont forget delirium was launched during the massive lockdown when people had plenty of time to play while harvest was released after the first wave when many restrictions due to the pandemic were finally removed... so your stats just showed me how good were the numbers for harvest !

Heist was so unstable the first month that many players came back the second month just to try the league... so the retention for heist are also biased...

Hope the devs realize the mistake they are going to make. if you want to kill TFT discord, dont put a limit to store crafts and just make the item account bound for 1 hour after each harvest craft. Who’s going to give an item to an unknown player and whisp him back an hour later hoping he’s still online ?

GG left hand: 95% of players didn't craft their items, they preferred to buy them because they know what they are paying for.
GG right hand: Let's remove harvest because we want people to experience nice random crafting

GG brain-> We added deterministic crafting so people would like to craft their own items. So now when they did and we remove it we are sure they will keep crafting and not yeet all our 'fun' out of the window by buying them on trade

Really?

"

Zodrac wrote:

"

Zepepsico wrote:

I am afraid your perception can't really stand against the facts:

"

League Launch peak Weekend after Drop
Harvest 127k 81k -36%
Delirium 133k 100k -25%
Metamorph 118k 96k -19%
Blight 75k 54k -28%
Legion 114k 95k -17%
Synthesis 113k 77k -32%
Betrayal 123k 106k -14%
Delve 76k 65k -14%
Incursion 96k 83k -14%
Bestiary 82k 68k -17%
Abyss 70k 63k -10%
Harbinger 98k 90k -8%
Legacy 64k 53k -17%
Breach 47k 43k -9%
Essence 33k 31k -6%
Prophecy 26k 22k -15%
Perandus 37k 32k -14%
Talisman 22k 20k -9%
Warbands / Tempest 32k 29k -9%
Torment / Bloodlines 14k 12k -15%
Rampage / Beyond 25k 20k -20%
Ambush / Invasion 20k 17k -15%
Domination / Nemesis 34k 32k -6%

On Steam, Harvest had the worst retention numbers (not sure if Heist was worst or better). Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/hi47ig/harvest_league_broke_historical_records_for/

If this league is a success, it's because of the Atlas rework (it's fun), the Maven missions (it's fun), Ritual (it's fun and more mobs and more loot!). Yes some players like, adore, worship harvest, but the limited evidence we have is that players absolutely hated the original Harvest league.

Well thats because of the Garden - you have to put up a garden like a chore.
Plan your layout, plant your seeds, run xx maps to make your garden rdy etc. How much time did u waste just to plan your most effcient garden?
Of course not many could see beyond that point the garden could offer after a couple of days since the league mechanic at the beginning wasnt fun at all. I remember i also hadnt that much fun during the first week, i was nearly bout to quit the league and waiting for the next league until i saw some posts/guides about how the league was intended to play to make full use of it.

This league you just find the Grove with a rdy to pick up Garden - kill those monsters, harvest your mods - thats why it is more fun than in harvest league itself.
But yeah it can also be the new content in this current League (Maven + Ritual + Harvest is back but easier to use)

When i was luring in bug report forum, in that league a lot of complain was about the tutorial quest is bugged so that they can't even progress.

GGG gutted out the whole garden building is good for support staffer and wiki volunteers to try to write a proper debug guide on why my progress is fuxked

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6fig0OvuPU

It's the theme song to Path of Exile.

~And if you close your eyes, does it feel like your exalt almost hit this time~

"

bauermayers wrote:

Someone already debunked you, but just to point out how you're already making excuses if Ritual retention numbers are positive: "it's because of the expansion, and the expansion alone because reasons".

Unlike others, I can accept being wrong or accepting alternative explanations.

Yes, the "setting up the garden" may have been the driver of the poor Harvest retention. I accept this point. Similarly, I don't see why you should dismiss all the fun with Maven and Ritual as being potential retention element. They are extremely fun. It's probably my most played league, and I did not craft.

So yes, maybe Harvest was not detrimental to retention and maybe a big boost, but we players do not have access to this info.

You even know what, reading some of the more rational argument and listening to some of the more logical streamers, I am also shifting my position in the sense that while a nerf was still needed, maybe it did go too far. Harvest does bring benefits to the community and to some play-styles. It was simply becoming a necessity and taking too much importance versus jsut killing stuff. Killing stuff should be the best way to improve in an ARPG in my opinion.


I do still have a issues with many players for whom "easier" is their key mantra. When I don't have time to no-life, I accept that my goals should be scaled back for my casual playtime. There is no shame in not finishing all content every single league. It is not a god given right to finish the game or challenges every single league.

And yes, games may evolve, but then again some customers want the original spirit to be kept and don't want to be displaced by newer customers just because the boss is greedy and wants more money. Niche players do not have enough niches, let the masses play the more casual games.
If you go to a classical restaurant and ask for you wine to be mixed with Pepsi, I sure hope you get thrown out. The customer is not always right.