Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting

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illdyking wrote:

Why do people whine so much.

You can probably beat most of the game on SC with 50C gear, you dont need harvest gear for that.

I mean, you got 6 rips, 6 portal.

TRANSLATION: "Why do people want to keep playing after they beat act 10? Who do they think they are?"

Maybe they're just sick of hitting a brick wall unless they play an expensive meta build?

One of the problems we've been discussing in here is player retention, and frustration with not being able to participate in the endgame. It's one of the reasons why new leagues peter out after 2 weeks, and why leagues with harvest crafting last longer.

Your post literally supports the position you claim to oppose.

"

illdyking wrote:

Why do people whine so much.

You can probably beat most of the game on SC with 50C gear, you dont need harvest gear for that.

I mean, you got 6 rips, 6 portal.

When majority is saying the same thing. "Whine" is not a wise choice of words.

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illdyking wrote:

Why do people whine so much.

You can probably beat most of the game on SC with 50C gear, you dont need harvest gear for that.

I mean, you got 6 rips, 6 portal.

Says the HC player, where you definitely WANT a build OVER 50c to simply survive.

I highly doubt EVERYONE who is “whining” wants to stick to a 50c budget lol.

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Obright wrote:

"

illdyking wrote:

Why do people whine so much.

You can probably beat most of the game on SC with 50C gear, you dont need harvest gear for that.

I mean, you got 6 rips, 6 portal.

TRANSLATION: "Why do people want to keep playing after they beat act 10? Who do they think they are?"

Maybe they are just sick of hitting a brick wall unless they play an expensive meta build?

One of the problems we've been discussing in here is player retention, and frustration with not being able to participate in the endgame. It's one of the reasons why new leagues peter out after 2 weeks, and why leagues with harvest crafting last longer.

Your post literally supports the position you claim to oppose.

What do you mean "getting" stuck? Just play softcore and you can keep going and keep progressing? With any build, meta or not.

You fail a map boss first time? Try next portal. Even if you fail all portal(not very likley) just make a new map, and maybe this time you beat him?




Dude, harvest league was the shortest league of all leagues.

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JayJayxd77 wrote:

Says the HC player, where you definitely WANT a build OVER 50c to simply survive.

I highly doubt EVERYONE who is “whining” wants to stick to a 50c budget lol.

OFC, you get one life, so more life needed :)

One thing you'll notice as well is on HC we actually take life nodes on passive tree, not only damage :)



Imo they could make like a "godmode-league" where you can chose whatever stats on rare items you like.
Like harvest, but even a little stronger.

Then harvest lovers can play on that league.

(🌸=◡=)

GGG states:

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"We know that many players would love us to keep deterministic crafting in the game because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve."

...or this famous one that has become a meme:

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"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."

I honestly do not know where to start with these statements. I honestly feel like they only look at PoE player behavior by looking at data and deciding that qualitative feedback is for amateurs. I feel like they have no idea...

1) Why people play PoE
2) What people do in PoE

It seems they have this belief that the solution to A) Fun and B) Speed is by forcing you to gamble. They also believe that the majority of people like to gamble. This is reinforced in the manifesto that keeps using the word "deterministic" as some sort of GGG curse-word is culturally disillusioned.

Heres my top 15 reasons why I think people play PoE:

1) People play your game because it provides simple and intuitive controls that is challenging as they play through content.
2) Its a fun top-down MOBA style game where you kill stuff for loot
3) You can get more powerful
4) You can customize your character with unbridled innovation and very little hard barriers
5) There is a ton of tools to develop and grow at your disposal
6) The world is extremely expansive despite some of the repetition in gameplay.
7) Vibrant community
8) Great Youtube and Streaming content and Discord channels
9) Awesome Wiki Support and external resources
10) Winning in the game feels good
11) You feel accomplished when you do something right in the game and rewards seem instant when you do - such as, "Wow I totally destroyed that map/boss with my new build - feelsgoodman!" or "I struggled so much with that boss, and now I got him on farm - feelsgoodman!"
12) Obtaining wealth
13) Trading with people makes the game feel alive
14) Very little evidence or experience that the game has been compromised by bots, scammers, spammers, griefers, or other entities that make a game community feel like trash. Positive community.
15) Restarting a character or replaying content feels good, like something you want to do not something you HAVE to do because you ran out of content.

Not ONE of those reasons is because...

A) I love obscure mechanics that require me to depend on luck and not skill, my intelligence or hard work to solve - great times! Let's gamble some more!
B) I just love to finish a game like I can in PoE and see those credits roll. Beating PoE was the greatest experience ever.
C) I enjoy instant gratification like I can get in PoE. I just roll up to a Sacred Grove and get out my Base and use the "Deterministic Crafting" and BOOM instant MIRROR TIER GEAR! POGCHAMP! Wait... what? You mean getting a Tier 1 phys roll still requires 870 Exalts worth of crafts to make? EZ CLAP average player currency! I'll make 12 by noon.

GGG continues to manage the game based on the actions of the 1%'ers. I get obtaining gear needs to be tailored. Everyone agreed with that but, GGG doesn't understand that RNG is not what drives this game, it's actually what is a pain point for many players. This "gambling" ethos is shoved down players thoughts like its the secret sauce. Its just not. Look at every other game that has exclusively used RNG as a core game mechanic, failed. Look at the developer Nexon. They use RNG as their means to exclusively generate revenue. They have barely a game that is wrapped around it. So much so they are required to publically list chances of outcomes. GGG, you need to change your philosophy on these topics and start listening to your players. - micdrop.

Reading through all those comments "GGG should listen to the majority of the player base - the casuals - otherwise it´s going to die" frustrates me..

PoE did not become that giant of a game in it´s genre because it was made for "the casual" in mind nor do the developers need to listen to any of those people - in fact they should NOT listen at all to them.

Of course everyone gets mad when something he/she played gets nerfed.. or a mechanic gets "killed" (like Harvest here)..
I say that "of course" .. although i never really cared for nerfs to builds i play and there were many.. there is always something else to explore!
So why is it that people get so upset over something they shouldn´t even care for?

We play a game that passionate people developed over years, that grew and flourished like no other in it´s genre and it keeps getting better and better, more content, more diversity in play, deeper systems - everything that made PoE the game it is.

Don´t try to be "smarter" than the people who made this game (even if from a certain point of few, you might as well be "smarter"). It is their game and i for myself am happy to visit PoE every 3 Months with a new surge of energy, to dive into whatever build i might feel like and experience whatever content there is.

PLAY the game, don´t try to MAKE the game!
(or don´t play it, if you can´t stand nerfs or changes.. but then at least have the decency to not cry and whine for things you think you deserve.. but actually don´t)

Nerfs to alternative quality gems was 8 less damage and surability to my build. This feels terribe. Now this. I am sorry but I am rage quiting along with my support. Too much disapointment.

"

trepcsuit wrote:

GGG states:

"

"We know that many players would love us to keep deterministic crafting in the game because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve."

...or this famous one that has become a meme:

"

"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."

I honestly do not know where to start with these statements. I honestly feel like they only look at PoE player behavior by looking at data and deciding that qualitative feedback is for amateurs. I feel like they have no idea...

Full ack. Whenever they output a 'manifesto' - really just a slew of apologies for the nerfs - I find myself literally shaking my head at their intentions and reasons, at this design philosophy that runs contrary to everything I want. Reading that of 500 pages' worth of replies only about 2% are positive actually calms me down a bit because it shows that for once, I'm not the odd one out with my sentiments.

All they needed to do was disable trading of the crafts. But this, this is actually closer to what e.g. EA did with their "Battlefront II" character unlocks. Makes no difference to me if I need to spend 40 hours unlocking Darth Vader or to afford a single good item. Parents, teach your kids about the subtleties of online gambling - playing the RNG roulette for hours on end for virtual goods is time of life stolen.

Anyone know of an alternative to this game, maybe by a younger company that's still closer to their playerbase than to Tencent shareholders? Always remember: "It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it."

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aggrofee wrote:

PLAY the game, don´t try to MAKE the game!
(or don´t play it, if you can´t stand nerfs or changes.. but then at least have the decency to not cry and whine for things you think you deserve.. but actually don´t)

Actually, that's not quite true with the deserving part. Even putting all fiscal investments aside (and there's a lot of that; heck, all the supported packs bought over the years have made GGG a multi-billion company), the sheer thousands of hours of lifetime millions of people have poured into this product entitles them to at the very least an opinion, because it's become a great part of their lives. Such is the fate of all popular creation.

"South Park" did an interesting sketch on this about Spielberg and Lucas updating their movies: The point is successful products no longer solely belong to the creator. The time, emotions, money spent on them by the consumer make them at least partly theirs. Even purely virtual assets (movies, games) can become so intertwined in people's conscious they feel actively robbed if they are taken away. Imagine your favorite band snuck into your home one night and irreversibly altered your favorite album by them, giving nothing but the explanation "It's better this way."

There are no legal grounds for recourse, and that's actually a good thing or else the developers would be too scared to make anything lest they are sued over it in the future. But from an ethical point of view, it feels wrong to take the most beloved parts of a game away just because they might dilute future profit.

It's also exacerbated in the case of this game because everything is server-sided, which normally has great benefits (above all the impossibility to cheat). But it also means that Harvest's days are, as of this thread, numbered. Doom is looming on the horizon and when the new patch hits in a few days, there is no going back, only scorched earth where once crops bloomed. You can't play the game offline, be it with emulators or by other means, which would allow you to essentially play Harvest indefinitely, just in your own, perpetual SSF league. You can't go back once the patch hits, and you can't not install the patch. This inevitability of the impending nerf leaves you but two choices: Comply or stop playing. None of us want to do the latter. We love this game, that's why we complain.