Path of Exile: Siege of the Atlas Teasers

More QoL teasers please. the game is f-ing tedious....

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yakoob wrote:

Oh boy. OK let's go.

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rekikyo wrote:

Okay. Apparently a nub moment, because I've never had cause to look up a cap.

BUT: We're talking about bosses, which have augmented Ailment Thresholds. For all intents and purposes, the numbers I mentioned are realistic compared to what you normally do. Most bosses you are lucky to apply a 10-16% Shock effect or a 6% Slow from Chill. Multiplicatively the penetration erases that, and will let people strongly go for the 30/50.

Thank God skitterbots+unbound ailments is a thing.

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rekikyo wrote:

On Shock: There are ways to gain more than a 50% Cap on Shock. Voltaxic Rift is 100%, and there is a mastery that gives other builds 60%.

rekikyo

If you have a Voltaxic Rift with this build, the result is literally around 400% damage, because you are dealing raw damage on hit to in some cases -110% Resistances, to -200% Resistances.

Suppose your Voltaxic rift build has a DPS of 12 million DPS vs Sirus. Sirus has 50/50/50/30 Resistances. At 12 mil DPS, you do about a 36% innate Shock effect. Voltaxic's innate modifier that makes a boss take a shock as if taking 300% damage raises this 36% to above 50%, because of its other innate value that raises the Shock Threshold to 100%. 36 mil effective DPS results in about a 55% Effect of Shock. Now, let's compare the two, given only lightning and chaos damage.
Suppose -48% Pen vs -158% Pen

Normal:
Chaos Damage: 12,000,000(.6)(.7) = 5,040,000 Damage
Lightning Damage: 12,000,000(.4)(.98) = 4,704,000
Combined Damage with Shock: 9,744,000(1.53 (shock of 29.2 mil)) = 14,908,320 Damage to Sirus.

With Amulet/1100 Stats:
Chaos Damage: 12,000,000(.6)(.7) = 5,040,000 Damage
Lightning Damage: 12,000,000(.4)(2.08) = 9,984,000 Damage
Combined Damage with Shock: 15,024,000(1.65 (shock value of 45 million)) = 24,789,600

That's a 10,000,000 difference in damage, or roughly 71% Increase.

It's also worth noting; That's NOT a max Attribute build. That's a pretty basic middle ground build with only 1100 Stats. On a Build with Voltaxic with Increased Effect of Shock Modifiers (I didn't include them yet), and -200% Lightning Resistance, the damage will Cap out at 100% Increased Shock Damage, and will do more raw base damage.

Now..... let's assume we lose a little of our base DPS because of chasing some attributes. I'm going to reduce 12,000,000 DPS to 10,000,000 DPS just for the joke of it.

Here's 100%/-200%:

Chaos Damage: 10,000,000(.6)(.7) = 4,200,000 Damage
Lightning Damage: 10,000,000(.4)(2.98) = 11,920,000
Combined Damage with Shock: 16,120,000(2.0) = 32,240,000.

So you are going to build your whole character to stack attributes to boost ELEMENTAL penetration via amulet on a build that converts majority of it's damage to CHAOS.

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rekikyo wrote:

Spoiler

The Ignite argument is correct on its face, because the ignite applying effect will literally have to deal with negative fire resist, which is the problem that makes Fire damage generally a poor matchup for most end game bosses.

If you have 15 mil DPS but only 48% Penetration vs a boss that has 90% Fire res, the result is a calculation where you only do 8,700,000, and Ignite worth 17,400,000 when over a total of 4 seconds.

If the same base damage were applied with 200% Fire Penetration, the result is a 31,500,000 hit that does Ignite damage of 63,000,000 over 4 seconds.

VAST difference.

I'm guessing your comment on Ignite was that because DoT doesn't usually reflect Penetration. However, Ignite derives its initial damage from a Hit, so Yes. It's one of the only DoT that DOES reflect resistances. Burn intrinsically doesn't, like that from Flame Dash or Flame Wall.

EDIT: I'm wrong on this point so disregard the Ignite convo. It's still worth mentioning the initial Hit on a Fire build will be much larger after modification. I'm not going to delete the convo and pretend it didn't happen.

Ignite is not actualy based on the hit ;) Neither penetration nor any hit multipliers increase ignite damage. But I guess you already know that since you corrected yourself. Nonetheless your calcs were off grid again since ignite got reworked this league. Base ignite dot is no longer 50% of spell/attack base damage*ignite multipliers, it's 125% now. Fandom wiki is outdated use poewikinet.

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rekikyo wrote:

Spoiler

Now, I know that trying to get enough stats to get to 200 Penetration (the 48% you had in the initial build + 1520 Omniscience) requires some build alterations you wouldn't normally do. However, that's a number of attributes that's actually at a manageable level, and doesn't really require that much investment. A scion can grab both Attribute wheels on the Skill Tree, as well as an innate 180 from Ascending, and gain about another 300-400 base just from creating their tree to get around to Clusters. All they need is to craft a Attribute belt, and pick up some 60 Stat rolls on some gear, and they can achieve 1520 Omniscience without really trying, and STILL build close to the same base DPS as they did without the attribute build.

You're not ever going to bridge the gap between a build that still has to deal with base boss Resists and a build that doesn't. Ever.

Curses don't even bypass core boss resists anymore. Exposure usually isn't strong enough on top of curses to break through either, or if it does, it only brings them to about -10% to -20%. The game has no minimum limit on ele penetration.

Doryani's is literally the exception to the rule on single target damage. Every other build to this date, other than an "Ignores Resistance" rule has not had an easy time of dealing with ele resistances other than by blowing up damage to a point where it no longer mattered.

I'm not negating the fact that this amulet is OP and probably another addition to chase unique items. I was pointing out that in some cases your arguments were invalid or numbers were off the charts ;) I like your persistece and creativity though ;) Keep up theorycrafting, but don't forget to check your stuff ;)

Good luck having mana reservation open for Unbound Ailment Skitters while running several Auras.

I just demonstrated that by having a 100% Shock Cap, even if 60% of lightning is converted to chaos, the multiplicative damage effect of 100% Shock well makes up for it and in fact over triples the damage caused vs a normal build that doesn't have this amulet, and I also did it with numbers that don't require heavy attribute investment. That's an important thing you just "Spoilered."

Keep in mind that 100% Shock effect on Voltaxic ALSO increases the chaos damage, so by reaching 100% without Skitterbots (which are only a flat 15% Shock which would require 600% increased ailment effect to copy what Voltaxic can do) it heavily increases damage beyond what would be normal.

What I'm planning on in the next league is map clearing using a Phys to Lightning Hydrosphere with a 60% Shock Effect Cap on Spellslinger with a high Phys DPS Wand. I can make that work just as well as a Voltaxic build, because Phys to Lightning heavily amplifies the "utility" damage Hydrosphere does by affecting every level of the conversion on hit. Another option might be later 9 linking Cyclone to a CoC Hydrosphere to bring your Hydrosphere with you, converting both to lightning, and applying serious leech while building spell suppression/block.

If I do end up with a Cyclone build, I'll have a 4L or even just a 3L Vengeance applying Conductivity on Hit. Pretty easy build with a lot of room for other things like Auras or Tempest Shield (Crest Helm).

What do you want to bet I can get it up to 60% Shock on bosses and do over 23 mil/second?

Sudden Dawn so OP with Wicked Ward.

Will be insane defensively with Ranger/Shadow that has a bunch of increased ES recharge rate nodes. Bated Breath, even Blightwell will shine with this (perma 400% increased ES recharge is practically 10% ES regen rate or higher even with the slower from other items).

You could also use it as a sacrificial slot on a Life build and take Eternal Youth, and it basically becomes a second Life regeneration stacked on top of the other, for regen that happens so fast you can't die.

But..... I don't see many people subscribing to it.

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rekikyo wrote:

Sudden Dawn so OP with Wicked Ward.

Will be insane defensively with Ranger/Shadow that has a bunch of increased ES recharge rate nodes. Bated Breath, even Blightwell will shine with this (perma 400% increased ES recharge is practically 10% ES regen rate or higher even with the slower from other items).

You could also use it as a sacrificial slot on a Life build and take Eternal Youth, and it basically becomes a second Life regeneration stacked on top of the other, for regen that happens so fast you can't die.

But..... I don't see many people subscribing to it.

33% less energy recharge rate from sudden dawn
40% less energy recharge rate from wicked ward

thats a lot of less multiplier to recharge rate if you ask me, i think Xirgil's Crank does a better job.

bammmm

With the dancing dervish, do i need an item to enable rampage like biscos leash for it to work?

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rekikyo wrote:

Good luck having mana reservation open for Unbound Ailment Skitters while running several Auras.

I usualy have no problem using Determination, Pride, DreadBanner and UnboundSkitters on my minion builds. Don't see a problem.

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rekikyo wrote:

I just demonstrated that by having a 100% Shock Cap, even if 60% of lightning is converted to chaos, the multiplicative damage effect of 100% Shock well makes up for it and in fact over triples the damage caused vs a normal build that doesn't have this amulet, and I also did it with numbers that don't require heavy attribute investment. That's an important thing you just "Spoilered."

You missed the whole point. I just checked those builds on poeninjabuilds and most of them got 100% chaos or 80(+)% chaos and 20(-)% cold or lightning damage split. So you are stacking thousands of attributes to get hundreds percent of ele pen for 15-20% part of your dmg when you could achieve the same with 5x-6x less chaos pen or any generic ele/chaos dmg increases instead of all those attributes since thanks to voltaxic your chaos dmg can shock aswell.

Furthermore if you invest so heavy into atrributes on all your gear to get those crazy multipliers to ele pen then where does the initial dmg get from?
You do realize 200k base dps from your 6L gems and crappa Voltaxic times even 1000% multipliers from all the penetration in the world from all the attributes on your gear is still like only 2 mil dps right? Where do you get those "important spoilered" initial 12 mil dps in your "important spoilered" calculation? Most voltaxic builds barely get 2 mil dps, if that. Did you pull those 12mil base out of your hat? It just doesn't make any sense man. Come on man.

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rekikyo wrote:

Keep in mind that 100% Shock effect on Voltaxic ALSO increases the chaos damage, so by reaching 100% without Skitterbots (which are only a flat 15% Shock which would require 600% increased ailment effect to copy what Voltaxic can do) it heavily increases damage beyond what would be normal.

Hold your horses, I mentioned unbound skitters when there was no talk about Voltaxic yet. You said builds barely reach 10% shock and 6% chill which is fundamentaly untrue because you get 18% shock and 12% chill with plain skitters(21) which most of the builds still use even after ailment treshold buffs. 26.25% shock and 17,5% chill with unbound(21) skitters(21). With skitters you can even put ele focus in your main link, which is one of the highest multiplier supports nowadays, since skitters provide ailments, you dont care about ele focus supp downside.
Anyhow you are changing the narrative by jumping topics correlating my responses with different paragraphs than my response was addressed to, just to suit your argument bud.

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rekikyo wrote:

Spoiler

What I'm planning on in the next league is map clearing using a Phys to Lightning Hydrosphere with a 60% Shock Effect Cap on Spellslinger with a high Phys DPS Wand. I can make that work just as well as a Voltaxic build, because Phys to Lightning heavily amplifies the "utility" damage Hydrosphere does by affecting every level of the conversion on hit. Another option might be later 9 linking Cyclone to a CoC Hydrosphere to bring your Hydrosphere with you, converting both to lightning, and applying serious leech while building spell suppression/block.

If I do end up with a Cyclone build, I'll have a 4L or even just a 3L Vengeance applying Conductivity on Hit. Pretty easy build with a lot of room for other things like Auras or Tempest Shield (Crest Helm).

What do you want to bet I can get it up to 60% Shock on bosses and do over 23 mil/second?

I couldn't care less at this point bud. You haven't been playing fair in this conversation.

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caboom wrote:

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rekikyo wrote:

Sudden Dawn so OP with Wicked Ward.

Will be insane defensively with Ranger/Shadow that has a bunch of increased ES recharge rate nodes. Bated Breath, even Blightwell will shine with this (perma 400% increased ES recharge is practically 10% ES regen rate or higher even with the slower from other items).

You could also use it as a sacrificial slot on a Life build and take Eternal Youth, and it basically becomes a second Life regeneration stacked on top of the other, for regen that happens so fast you can't die.

But..... I don't see many people subscribing to it.

33% less energy recharge rate from sudden dawn
40% less energy recharge rate from wicked ward

thats a lot of less multiplier to recharge rate if you ask me, i think Xirgil's Crank does a better job.

I mentioned that. However, Blightwell alone is 400% increased Recharge rate.

Something else I forgot about was that on ES/Armour Mastery nodes, there is a mastery that increases the rate of ES recharge based on Armour Modifiers. That's the most likely course.

Xergil's crank is too pigeonholed. Denies Tempest Shield, shield ES mods, gimps offensive weaponry options.

My Guess is Blightwell + Armour into ES recharge on possibly a Templar will be the best use, or second best on a cold witch.

lol Rekikyo, you just can't win can you?

The "less" multipliers are not so easy to overcome, even with 400% INCREASED recharge. You are misunderstanding and misrepresenting the numbers. Your mention of the Armor/ES mastery would only add 40% ish increased recharge rate with heavy tree armor investment.

Think about running a regen character in a map with 60% less recovery rate mod. Your recovery becomes crap, and is practically unsustainable even when you stack every possible source of regen.

This would be 73%, which is even worse than that.

I guess you COULD stack regen to counteract the recharge decrease AND stack increased recharge rate but then you are shooting yourself in the foot for no real benefit.

**not to mention its an "on kill" effect, so its useless against bosses

Just did the math: so you could pretty easily get 500% or more increased recharge rate from the amulet + tree + armor mastery. After all the negatives this would result in 1.5 x typical recharge rate as REGEN provided you have 100% uptime on the shield proc. {x * (1+5) * .27 where x is 20% of your maximum ES} That is an incredibly large amount of regen to have while mapping, especially if you are approaching 10k ES.

BUT

The cost is losing huge shield and amulet slots for gear. Tons of better pathing on the tree. Complete loss of regen that could achieve similar numbers without the handicaps. And of course, none of this would be active on a boss unless you run 4 writhing jars for a near-100% chance of getting the on-kill effect.

Please tell me if I'm missing something

I mean, you could forget all about the tree and do normal pathing, and simply rely on the shield + amulet which would be a pretty tanky setup for mapping. If you have 10k max ES, that combo nets you 2700 regen if you've procced the shield. Nothing to sneeze at, but is it really worth it?