widescreen resolution removed from the game.

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

"

Echothesis wrote:

.

Just want to make sure before i answer, are these your or someonelses conclusions? Do you believe in these statements or are they just a summary of something others are saying?

I don't chronicle what others are saying, and wouldn't have cited anyone without references. While never had 5-way KB build myself, seen it in action, as well as ranger builds made by my friends in party. With my lesser range build I wasn't able to hit a single mob if I wanted to, everything was already dead before appearing on screen as we walked.

"

Echothesis wrote:

the axiom/conclusions post

What a ridiculous post attempting to draw a scientific conclusion. You take the MOST narrow view of the entire game and attempt to draw all your conclusions regarding this situation based on it?

The entire post falls apart when you realize that your whole premise (Axiom 1) is such a minute portion of the game and relation to the ultrawide problems.

I will agree that what you say is partially true, but its again a cherry-picked wholly incomplete picture that you are using as justification.

You decide to completely ignore the (likely) majority of people who are NOT playing with projectile-based builds. Because their axiom and conclusions most certainly don't conform to ANYTHING you wrote in your post. And that's actually kinda the point.....THOSE players.

You also ignore the very real situation where.....gasp.....there can be TWO problems at once!!!!!!! One: projectiles dealing too much damage, and clearspeed being too great. And TWO: ultrawide providing more viewing area. There are even MORE issues here to consider too. 3: melee has issues. We know that.

IF melee were better in the game, the issues with ultrawide extra viewing become even more exacerbated. IF projectiles are nerfed and/or brought into better balance down the road, again...ultrawide extra viewing becomes more problematic.

You consider absolutely none of this, because you simply aren't thinking about it enough. The only thing on your mind is black bars, and not ACTUAL fixes, feedback, understanding, or debate.

Sure.

Screen:
Disclaimer: Calculations within 1% margin of error.
A)U.Wide. 1132 x 1.27 = 1437.64 pixels. 13,5% wider for each side. 305 pixels wider than standard.
B)16:9. 1132 pixels wide.

Wide Range Reference:
16:9(Top).
Stacked: U.Wide > 16:9 > 4:3 (Middle).
U.Wide (Bottom).
Strong Box Reference (Middle Left).
All images stacked adequately to assure quality.


Skill in Question:
Tornado Shot
Lightning Strike
Bladestorm

Empirical Tests:
The baseline used was un-juiced T16 with 90%+ quant.

Tree used:


Map Sample used:


Videos:
Tests for U.Wide vs 16:9 agro distance.
U.Wide x 16:9 Top Left against mildly active enemies:https://puu.sh/K8z8S/125159ac5a.mp4.
Enemies do not agro.

Wide x 16.9 Approach against fairly active enemies:https://puu.sh/K8zaw/ea95ea59e7.mp4.
16:9 enemies agro.

Direct horizontal Sight wide:https://puu.sh/K8zc4/b4955c3af5.mp4.
10 seconds to agro.

Direct horizontal Sight 16:9:https://puu.sh/K8zc7/199e978cbc.mp4.
Instant agro.

This proves an advantage exists. But you might as well say that it's impractical to use it on a regular play.

Extra paper 0% exp TS Build:
Build proof:


Essence Monster 1 x 0% exp TS build:
https://puu.sh/K8zj6/c7e5856e6a.mp4.
@24 seconds, meteor does 3/4 of my life. Unsafe at 16:9. Pretty safe at U.Wide.

Essence Monster 2 x 0% exp TS build:
Wide x essence:https://puu.sh/K8zto/4729d40dee.mp4
I can reliably keep track of him. Blood corruption rarely spawns near me. Yes, i smooth brained near the end with 16:9.
16:9 x essence:https://puu.sh/K8zty/920fc8e23c.mp4
I can't keep track of him in the same way. Blood corruption spawns near me constantly. I could attack from offscreen, but that diminishes damage substantially.

The survivability aspect i'm putting in question pertains to the distance one has from the monsters when you are playing an absolute paper build.

The damage aspect i'm putting in questions pertains to the damage output sustainability and increased damage from Far Shot.

But you are probably right, MB is not budget friendly. You know what is? Headhunter. https://poe.ninja/economy/necropolis/unique-accessories?name=Headhunter
Which also makes able to do relatively juiced maps with mirror of delirium. I made a video with the same character but it was too large and i don't have a way to cut it atm.

Oneshot BS build:
Build proof. Forgot about life: 5693 mana:851 ES:0.


Essence Monster 3 x Paper(?) BS build x 4:3:
https://puu.sh/K8zyc/6dcbc00b24.mp4

Then we convert that same BS build to the same stats as the TS build:


Essence Monster 4 x Paper BS Build:
https://puu.sh/K8zFX/2f6a915de8.mp4
Yeah.

So, should you get U.Wide or keep 16:9?
Tornado Shot: U.Wide gives QoL and damage increase for TS and similar builds.
Lightning Strike: similar performance, but has tradeoff as projectiles do less damage.
Bladestorm: literal waste of money.

"

Echothesis wrote:

- Conclusion 6: Fastest way of achieving desirable goal for majority of PoE players has no correlation with access to ways of negating mobs attack capabilities, including one known as "Ultrawide aspect ratio attack range".

Let's see what you concluded and apply it to a few simple questions:
U.Wide doesn't affect tanky builds? You would be correct. Mostly QoL.
U.Wide doesn't affect oneshot builds? You would be correct. Mostly QoL.
U.Wide doesn't affect melee builds? You would be correct. Mostly QoL. LS is not melee. /s.
U.Wide doesn't affect ranged builds? Partially correct. It will increase Tornado Shot and Toxic Rain damage and survivability(builds that need to click on the enemy location precisely), but Kinetic Bolt, Split Arrow and other projectile based builds are unaffected.
U.Wide doesn't affect paper builds? You would be incorrect. U.Wide is large enough so that it can and will affect mapping survivability and visibility.


Which makes me wonder. You yourself said that U.Wide "has no correlation with access to ways of negating mobs attack capabilities", yet i've proved the advantage exists and i've proved that it does affect survivability in projectile paper builds, and let me stress this again, does fuck all for melee, so i'll ask again, why try to force GGG do address something that beyond U.Wide is at best useless, by your own words, and at worst gives an advantage to mostly ranged builds, also being a QoL that GGG doesn't benefit one cent off of?

Almost forgot: she will teleport off screen, you know, if you're melee. https://puu.sh/K8BMZ/5a74069336.mp4

Did you also know that you can stun Uber Maven with Leap Slam?

^love the hard work analysis.

I would adjust your conclusions though. Particularly how you say "U.Wide doesn't affect melee". It absolutely does, tangentially, by your own admission and data. If U. Wide allows for greater survivability, then it naturally stands to reason that it would be advantageous for melee builds above all other builds to have.

Also, the use of "doesn't affect" is not exactly true....you are talking almost purely dps in those assessments so a better description would be "doesn't affect dps output". Because changing aggro and visual range absolutely DOES affect all of the examples you provided. Whatever might have an effect on paper builds (as you noted), will ALSO have an effect on all other archetypes of builds that may get hit.


Although I guess you are responding specifically to the "goal" that he set forth which refers to damage only (the narrow view I also mentioned).

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

.

I guess i could've elaborated that more. The survivability aspect i'm putting in question pertains to the distance one has from the monsters when you are playing an absolute paper build. That, for true melee, is null. Added visibility can help with kiting, but at least in
my experience, the U.Wide for melee is utterly useless for mapping, and arguably for bosses.

And true, as mentioned, all similar builds can be affected, i just wanted to address the big ones.

"

Let's see what you concluded and apply it to a few simple questions:
U.Wide doesn't affect tanky builds? You would be correct. Mostly QoL.
U.Wide doesn't affect oneshot builds? You would be correct. Mostly QoL.
U.Wide doesn't affect melee builds? You would be correct. Mostly QoL. LS is not melee. /s.
U.Wide doesn't affect ranged builds? Partially correct. It will increase Tornado Shot and Toxic Rain damage and survivability(builds that need to click on the enemy location precisely), but Kinetic Bolt, Split Arrow and other projectile based builds are unaffected.
U.Wide doesn't affect paper builds? You would be incorrect. U.Wide is large enough so that it can and will affect mapping survivability and visibility.

Which makes me wonder. You yourself said that U.Wide "has no correlation with access to ways of negating mobs attack capabilities", yet i've proved the advantage exists and i've proved that it does affect survivability in projectile paper builds,
...

I've also mentioned UW may help survivability (in generalization), and you are correct, paper builds would make the most use of it relative to other builds, more resources available to pour into dps. This doesn't necessarily mean their absolute dps would be highest possible in the game.

However, in order to never die (and thus never lose time per map, which is our stated goal), dps should be overwhelming relative to content, not just having long range. Otherwise you will be killed by stray projectile/debuff/degen.

I played various paper builds long enough to be sure death is unavoidable however careful I was and what kind of league content I farmed (main char in Standard has like 2500+ deaths over several builds, don't remember exactly lol). And if you have overwhelming ranged dps, it will allow stable deathless gameplay regardless of whether you are paper or tanky. This is what final conclusion meant.

"

...
and let me stress this again, does fuck all for melee, so i'll ask again, why try to force GGG do address something that beyond U.Wide is at best useless, by your own words, and at worst gives an advantage to mostly ranged builds, also being a QoL that GGG doesn't benefit one cent off of?

Before the fix, extra visibility was useless, but provided its bit of QoL. Now visibility remains useless/absent, (aside from maybe discouraging most stubborn paper build abusers), and we've lost a bit of QoL. "GGG doesn't benefit" is a bit of stretch, QoL plays a part in player retention in the long run. Especially when PoE has other big QoL problems already, first of all enormous amount of clicking in loot pickup, inventory and vendor management, and crafting. This point cannot be proved or disproved without PoE telemetry data. Imo QoL is worth the development costs, you may disagree.

However, this specific bit of QoL also doubles as a bridge to actual melee/ranged balancing, which brings us to your second point of "at worst gives an advantage to mostly ranged builds". Skills like TR or TS shouldn't have infinite targeting range even without black bars. TS arrows should burst into secondary when traveling far enough, other ranged skills limited in their own ways. At the same time, suggestions on buffs to melee skills were formulated by more knowledgeable players in other threads.

If GGG doesn't care about even trying said balancing, you would be correct, slamming bars remains the "best" option cost-wise. Or they could keep original bit of QoL from extra visisbility and fix a major aspect of the game at the same time, with extra work. Imo the idea is worth trolling GGG about.

"

Echothesis wrote:

This doesn't necessarily mean their absolute dps would be highest possible in the game.

Nowhere have i said anything about highest possible dps. All comparisons are against their own builds with their range advantage.

"

Echothesis wrote:

And if you have overwhelming ranged dps, it will allow stable deathless gameplay regardless of whether you are paper or tanky. This is what final conclusion meant.

Except that is simply untrue. You are right for T16s, but the T16 ceiling is really low nowadays. When you factor everything, T17s wipe the floor with any paper builds, so does some unavoidable phases. Have you actually done a fully juiced, delirium T17? I have and T16s are a joke compared to it, and so are builds with "overwhelming damage" and nothing else.

"

Echothesis wrote:

This point cannot be proved or disproved without PoE telemetry data.

"

Echothesis wrote:

Imo QoL is worth the development costs, you may disagree.

You sure you want to put those two sentences next to each other? You're basically affirming that we can't ever have that information, but is sure it's worth. See, it's stuff like that that makes me question your objectivity and what you say.

"

Echothesis wrote:

However, this specific bit of QoL also doubles as a bridge to actual melee/ranged balancing, which brings us to your second point of "at worst gives an advantage to mostly ranged builds". Skills like TR or TS shouldn't have infinite targeting range even without black bars. TS arrows should burst into secondary when traveling far enough, other ranged skills limited in their own ways. At the same time, suggestions on buffs to melee skills were formulated by more knowledgeable players in other threads.

"

Echothesis wrote:

While never had 5-way KB build myself, seen it in action, as well as ranger builds made by my friends in party. With my lesser range build I wasn't able to hit a single mob if I wanted to, everything was already dead before appearing on screen as we walked.

You should remember the things you write. By your admission, unless KB receives the same cutout as TS and TR, it will always do absurd off screen damage. I Also have a KB build for 5-ways, it's brain off.

"

Echothesis wrote:

If GGG doesn't care about even trying said balancing, you would be correct, slamming bars remains the "best" option cost-wise. Or they could keep original bit of QoL from extra visisbility and fix a major aspect of the game at the same time, with extra work. Imo the idea is worth trolling GGG about.

Almost two years passed. I guess you have your answer when it comes to "best" option.

"

tackle70 wrote:

1) We've been over this. The game is by definition not competitive in it's main modes. Calling a rose by another name doesn't change that it's a rose. Nobody here is in favor of 32:9 for the competitive modes (PvP, racing). PoE is exactly as competitive as Skyrim and Solitaire.


1 year, 296 days

Fix it

I don't know if you know wheat competitive means. PoE is 100% competitive. The economy is build on competition. Whoever can farm the most with the best strategy the fastest will make multiples more than another. The first week is basically racing to complete content to be one of the first to drop certain uniques that only have value early.

"

Dozer72 wrote:

"

tackle70 wrote:

1) We've been over this. The game is by definition not competitive in it's main modes. Calling a rose by another name doesn't change that it's a rose. Nobody here is in favor of 32:9 for the competitive modes (PvP, racing). PoE is exactly as competitive as Skyrim and Solitaire.


1 year, 296 days

Fix it

I don't know if you know wheat competitive means. PoE is 100% competitive. The economy is build on competition. Whoever can farm the most with the best strategy the fastest will make multiples more than another. The first week is basically racing to complete content to be one of the first to drop certain uniques that only have value early.

Chalk it up to him playing Standard league only. He wouldn't know

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

Except that is simply untrue. You are right for T16s, but the T16 ceiling is really low nowadays. When you factor everything, T17s wipe the floor with any paper builds, so does some unavoidable phases. Have you actually done a fully juiced, delirium T17? I have and T16s are a joke compared to it, and so are builds with "overwhelming damage" and nothing else.

You are correct, I don't have much data on T17 due to not playing much those days. My main char can clear the map (without strong delirium), but T17 bosses are unavoidable oneshot. So reasoning above was without T17, and as a side note I shudder at the thought of something like T17 being officially made mandatory content (because of 5th map slot), along with uber bosses breaking GGG's own choreography design (unique loot pool).

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

You sure you want to put those two sentences next to each other? You're basically affirming that we can't ever have that information, but is sure it's worth. See, it's stuff like that that makes me question your objectivity and what you say.

Point was, we cannot know how many people abandoned game due to bad overall QoL, and cannot know if patches containing QoL upgrades had better sales on league day/week 1. So I can only say personal opinion that caring about QoL is important, but cannot build any serious reasoning for this topic. Maybe core of PoE whiteknights will keep supporting and grinding it forever wihtout any changes made from current state :)

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

You should remember the things you write. By your admission, unless KB receives the same cutout as TS and TR, it will always do absurd off screen damage. I Also have a KB build for 5-ways, it's brain off.

Correct, that KB is among the first things they should fix if they wished to improve balance. Along with spark build filling half the map with projectiles. Seen it by joining public game once, and it felt like creepy horror episode, everything lags to a stall, couldn't make sense of what happening :)
But don't mean nerfing KB basics to the ground as GGG likes to handle things, just the offscreen range.

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

Almost two years passed. I guess you have your answer when it comes to "best" option.

As said above, they did add portal scroll hotkey, and they cannot ignore global audience habits evolving over time. I really doubt PoE2 will release with such cringe UI and QoL PoE1 has now, and GGG may be willing to backport some of that QoL to PoE1. :copium: