Economy is such as trash now

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staytuned2k#6008 wrote:

300d is a lot? In what world?

My 300d is now in my gear, not liquid. And just one little purchase and I'd be broke again.

ok i thought you meant 300 divines in hard currency, that would probably put you in the top 1% of players in terms of wealth if it were the case.

it would also be an amount elite traders could make in a single day i expect, but thats the 0.01%

if you have a 300 divine character tho ur still up there m8, thats more than most people will have by far. youre still very much in the higher ranks of players, absolutely no shame in having 300 divines in gear.

"

staytuned2k#6008 wrote:

Is 500+ hours of "playing" (read: spending time on the trading website) only worth a single good item?

well it depends on what standard you are setting as a good item and how good you were at playing and trading right? im sure theres tons of people who could spend twice that long doing either and not end up with half the things you have because theyre just not as good at it as you were.




i think everyone who wants an upgrade cant afford the next upgrade, its an inevitability. because if they want it and can afford it they buy it, now its not an upgrade its the gear they have and the next upgrade costs even more which they cant afford. people always stop at the point they cant afford the next thing and then they are where you are.

if you had 200 div for that dual string then you would have bought it and now you need 400 divines for a mirror and 200 for the mirror fee because thats the next upgrade.


only the top elite economy players are going to be able to mirror items, and then they cant upgrade them because it would take 50,000 divines to craft a bow that doesnt currently exist but would be a bit better than the one they just mirrored that cost someone 15,000 divines to craft.






a thing to keep in mind is that a league is usually active for about a month and a half and then most people are gone, the ones still around mostly have all the gear they need. people will come back for the next league. thats how it plays out and were already a little past that point in a really badly balanced first pass test version of 1/3 of the game.

so im not telling you everything is as it should be, you are absolutely seeing a system not working the way they want it to work or it will work on launch. im definitely not claiming everything you think is wrong and everything is working perfectly. theres so many things like endgame uniques and content which have big economic impact and are not in the game yet.

You're making a few good points but it's not about being ashamed of my character or not being able to keep up. Simularcum is broken and unbeatable on my build but the rest is T4 cleared.

It's about getting bottlenecked at a really bad spot.

The economy goes like this:

1ex
30ex
1d
50d
200d
Mirror

The gaps are too large. The last 3 stages can't be farmed, they have to be made through trading shenanigans. But that's the type of items you need in order to not struggle through the content. It took me almost all my available hours to keep up even a little bit, and after just a 3 days break this week the value of an ex got cut in half. What the f....

This is bad. Real bad. The game won't be able to retain a healthy player base that way. The EA player count was already cut in half as well. So riddle me this, we have less players but rising prices? Something doesn't add up here.

Lastly the entry to trading is catastrophic. I'm an active helper on discord for all things Deadeye. Most of the time I have to teach people how to properly use the trading website because they're all completely stuck using gear that can be afforded by doing content. And dropped gear is simply never good.

Apparently we have over 200k active players but even so there's only 9 bows that match my search. What... It surely can't be THIS RARE to see a 300+ DPS dualstring with double crit, right? Apparently yes. And that's just an anecdote.

There's rare. And then there's... This current situation.

Maybe the weights behind the tiering are just too imbalanced. Keep the T1 mods elusive but for gods sake just have the T2-3 mods roll a bit more often to keep the market healthy with good items to choose from. Or finally give us something that we can use to properly target some crafting beyond ridicuous 10.000 div "crafting"

Right now people probably don't even list perfect items with mods that don't also roll (near) perfect tiers anymore. I sure as hell don't when dealing with 5, 30, etc. Ex items get you absolutely nowhere.

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staytuned2k#6008 wrote:

It took me almost all my available hours to keep up even a little bit, and after just a 3 days break this week the value of an ex got cut in half. What the f....

Pretty much THE reason why i don't play the game as much as i was for the last month. With the amount i can spend playing it's impossible for me now to get enough currency to upgrade my gear anymore. So i just log in to do a map or two/ Sekhema run or two while waiting for the new "league"/ reset/ "insert name where you start over".

"

staytuned2k#6008 wrote:

The economy goes like this:

1ex
30ex
1d
50d
200d
Mirror

The gaps are too large. The last 3 stages can't be farmed, they have to be made through trading shenanigans. But that's the type of items you need in order to not struggle through the content. It took me almost all my available hours to keep up even a little bit, and after just a 3 days break this week the value of an ex got cut in half. What the f....

This is bad. Real bad. The game won't be able to retain a healthy player base that way. The EA player count was already cut in half as well. So riddle me this, we have less players but rising prices? Something doesn't add up here.

yeah i hear you, youre not wrong it does get like that.


with the exchange rates i think were in a chaotic state because we still dont really know what 'the' rates are yet, or rather the predictable spectrum. over time in poe1 the community established a range that currency rates almost always fall between and meta shifting game changes aside the expectation of the community keeps the rates between these fixed points.

we dont rly have that here yet, it takes time to figure out. so were still in a volatile situation.

ill give you the poe1 example. 2013 game goes into open beta about 8 months prior to full release, this is the week 1 exchange rates, note exalts are the big trading currency of the time and chaos the small currency:


1ex : 2div : 5gcp : 10regal : 15chaos : 30fusing : 30alch

so thats where things started week 1, what are the exchange rates in poe1
settlers league right now?

8ex : 1div : 120gcp : 800regal : 174chaos : 800fusing : alchs=worthless


so which is 'correct'? the rates in settlers are fairly normal, thats what ud expect almost every league. the week 1 2013 rates started moving very early on. the settlers rates are informed by 12 years of game experience and trends.



are maps worth exalting in poe2? is it really worth the time identifying and regal crafting blue items? meta behaviours like this form from group think and it reflects in currency rates. alchs are completely worthless in poe1, convention says picking up whites and alching them is a worthless activity, you self find more than enough to sustain maps.




you just cant get rid of them, i should probably take them off my filter why do i even loot these things?

in poe2 im self found i love to see an alch, always welcome. only 1/3 of the game is here, we cant even work out proper meta behaviours yet, know what i mean? not only is the game not 'solved', we dont even have the game, we got a first draft of 1/3 of the game. so i expect massive shifts to keep happening, itll probably take a year after full release before rates really grow roots.

so a lot of what u say is right but personally i dont worry about it cause we dont rly know whats gonna happen in the next 6 months of updates.

"

So riddle me this, we have less players but rising prices? Something doesn't add up here.

with less players but rising prices, standard league in poe1 is 12 years old, has about 1/10 of the players of the league i think and higher prices. but it still functions btw, its just a very mature economy.

i trade there. heres a window into my thinking in standard. i find a good pair of rare boots. if i found these first week of a league they would be worth a lot. but i have 30 better pairs here. i could legit sell them but they are new/mid tier player boots because everyone on my level has 30 better pairs like me.

new/mid players probably want to pay 5-100 chaos for boots. so ill vendor them because i have minimum 7000 chaos orbs and 2000 divine orbs on hand at all times. i dont trade for 5 chaos or 100 chaos, im not gonna waste my time trading an item for a divine orb. if its not 4 divines i cant rly be fucked most days, u know? i just dont need the currency dont need the item

so i vendor them.


this is how people get as economies get older. its not that the boots are worth more, if anything they are worth less in standard than they would be first week of a league. its just my time is worth more and trading takes my time. you have to pay me a 2 divine tax to even read your trade whisper cause im a fat old rich arsehole who doesnt need your money.


thats an anecdote, is that a wider phenomenon? i dunno.


but we do trade in standard, a lot. i can make 20+ sales a day there at times and thats all 2, 4, 20, 80+ divine trades. a new player can get good gear super cheap in standard, but really really good gear is very expensive. to get a footing a new player should play a new league, not an ultra mature economy like standard which is an expert trading space.


this league in EA is now a mature economy. the trade window in a poe economy is usually the first month. its a 3 month cycle game, we get together and blast for a month then go our different ways until the next league.







what i would say is poe2 currently does not have the depth and breadth of systems to provide enough means of generating currency like we have in poe1.

I dont quite understand the expectations here then. If the economy 1 month into a 3 months cycle is already broken (that's my opinion on the state), how are average players supposed to experience the content? This one is clearly catered to a more hardcore audience in POE2. There's no realistic way to experience most of the things the developers have put in the game if you don't heavily meta-game the first few weeks of a season then.

Again this is purely anecdotal but I've been boosting people for free through the 3rd and 4th ascendancies because these gamers just can't, or don't want to, add the needed hours into the progression of their characters to finish this content on their own. And that's just the ascendancy. Forget about pinnacle bosses. A lot of them can't even reliably clear a citadel. Most of these people will simply not interact with that content, and then quit halfway (if they even get that far) through the season.

I am discussing this with such fervor because we are still in early access, so certain adjustments can still be made. Simply relying on the trading game can't be the only way to reliably get gear. We desperately need more sophisticated secondary means to craft decent gear ourselves. There can still be lottery items in the game, but right now all items are lottery items.

So...

A) We need a div sink to keep inflation in check, but that sink shouldn't result on more divs, just new items
B) We need new methods to craft gear, keep RNG in it but not to the current degree
C) We need content to be adjusted to be easier on +0 and +1, and way harder on +2-+4. That way mid gear players can experience the lore of the game, while hardcore players can experience the challenge associated with higher difficulties
D) Value identification and trading of items has to become more streamlined and brought in line with 2025 gameplay features, provided through in-game solutions. No instant purchases though, Bots will kill the game instantly with that


While I am bottlenecked on the last jump to the absolute monster gear, that's just a personal expectation of mine to have the absolute best gear possible. Do I need that? No, I have cleared all content except for the truly broken shit I cannot do with my build.

But more importantly though, what I wish for is a stable and healthy community that continues to provide valuable items to the market. Otherwise I might as well just play SSF. Or not at all.

And I hope people don't take it too personal when I say that we shouldn't be looking back at POE1 too much, because there's a reason why the game is not a great example of large scale commercial success and community retention. The game has to be "un-sweat" to a certain degree

IMHO, as someone who has some experience farming end-game stuff (but not nearly the experience that some have), the end-game economy does indeed seem awful. Anything of value has a hyper-specific set of conditions that are met to make the item great, and it's worth multiple div orbs, or if not, it's literally vendor trash and can't be traded for even one regal. There's nothing in between.

Someone will probably point out that PoE 1's economy is like this, too, but it didn't always feel that way, to me. I seem to remember (back in 2016/2017?), being able to sucessfully trade more items that were okay/serviceable but not awesome.

I'm really not seeing any reason to not set an ultra-strict loot filter and simply ignore 99.999% of what drops, considering that picking through loot to try and fairly price stuff and list it is just a complete waste of my time. Someone will probably point out that PoE 1 works the same way, which may be mostly true, but that doesn't mean it's a healthy economy.

so op wants an astramentis but ragequitted before?

this is a player issue, go back to d4 and get your drop every map

"

Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

jeff bezos makes 190,000,000 a day.

Guys such as him don't make that in liquid currency. They make it in capital gains. They often can't liquidate those gains very easily because of SEC trading rules, if they're an executive at the company, for example. Even if no such rules apply, they still can't liquidate it all easily because they'd have to do it in blocks (you can't sell $millions in stocks all one big trade), and professional traders with the proper software would see the blocks getting traded in real time, and they'd jump in and tank the value of the security before Mr. Billionaire could sell it all. They can go borrow money against the value of the asset, but when people borrow too much the FED takes action and raises interest rates to slow things down, so there's a limit on how much people with great wealth could collectively borrow to put cash into the economy.

TL;DR: the people making obscene amounts of wealth are mostly making it on paper -- it's not liquid currency getting dumped into the economy.

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Soleus7#5201 wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

jeff bezos makes 190,000,000 a day.

Guys such as him don't make that in liquid currency. They make it in capital gains. They often can't liquidate those gains very easily because of SEC trading rules, if they're an executive at the company, for example. Even if no such rules apply, they still can't liquidate it all easily because they'd have to do it in blocks (you can't sell $millions in stocks all one big trade), and professional traders with the proper software would see the blocks getting traded in real time, and they'd jump in and tank the value of the security before Mr. Billionaire could sell it all. They can go borrow money against the value of the asset, but when people borrow too much the FED takes action and raises interest rates to slow things down, so there's a limit on how much people with great wealth could collectively borrow to put cash into the economy.

TL;DR: the people making obscene amounts of wealth are mostly making it on paper -- it's not liquid currency getting dumped into the economy.

sure.

you dont think people trade assets that they cant easily liquidate or dont want to in poe? im not sure what point ur making.