POE2 disrespecting our time (Post-0.4.0)

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Sakanabi#6664 wrote:

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Japonbu#0742 wrote:

No amount of "knowledge" or "watching guides" changes the drop rate in the database. I can know exactly how to craft an item, but if the Essences or Fossils don't drop after 50 hours of grinding, my knowledge is useless. Pretending that RNG is a "skill issue" is just elitist gatekeeping.

Maybe that's what people do wrong in SSF. Maybe you shouldn't farm for specific resource but rather play with whatever you already got. The "knowledge" part is about using limited resources for maximum gains.

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Japonbu#0742 wrote:

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I mean you're wrong on most of the points you tried to make. I play my own builds, don't follow guides and I don't even use PoB. I can consistently full clear in SSF day 3-4 without issues. You may not be able to, but that's a skill issue more than anything. You acting pretentious and trying to tell me how I play the game is egotistical af. Don't get mad just because you don't have the knowledge required or skill to do the same, as plenty of people can.

If you want to play a mode that isn't designed for more of a time investment trade exist for that reason. It is the best mode for people who can only play a few hours a day, as you don't have to have as much knowledge of the game and can just follow a guide, which will allow to to keep up with progression.

Even Jonathan has stated how the game is designed to where around 90% of the players base can't complete all the content. If you are wanting a more casual experience it may be a better to choice to find another game or play trade to help get over the hurdle, but an entire game mode, that has been very successful, shouldn't be changed because a few people don't have the time.

If anything I hope they make SSF harder and more of a grind. It's already too easy as it is for anyone with time put in to learning the mechanics and crafting.

All I did was give a suggestion to add an SSF+ mode for people who may want this and you come in aggressive as hell. Now I hope they make it more of a grind if anything, as I have unlimited time to play. T

Try not to personalize things so much, especially with someone who was pushing for a mode to appease people. Now I hope they never add it though

In the end the majority of people who play SSF agree with me and not the points you made, as this idea has been shot down for many years.

Good luck though in 0.5.

And there is the smoking gun: "I have unlimited time to play."

That single sentence explains our entire disagreement. You are viewing the game through the lens of someone who can sink 12-16 hours a day into a grind. Of course the drop rates feel fine to you; you are brute-forcing the RNG with sheer volume of playtime.

But here is the reality check: You are a statistical anomaly. Balancing a commercial product around players with "unlimited time" is financial suicide. The bills are paid by the 90% of players who have jobs, families, and limited schedules. If the game is tuned only for the "unlimited time" crowd, the servers will be empty in a month.

Regarding your claim of "Full clearing SSF in 3 days with no PoB and home-brew builds": If that is true, you are in the top 0.01% of players globally. You cannot tell the other 99.99% "It's a skill issue" just because they aren't gaming savants with infinite free time.

A game needs to be playable for the median player, not just the outliers. I’m happy you enjoy the grind, but your lifestyle is not the standard for game balance.

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Johny_Snow#4778 wrote:

Just like those people with higher education who work minimum wage jobs. Awww shucks

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It's the design philosophy for the game itself and has been for years even in PoE. If you are wanting a more casual experience there are other offerings out there, but don't try to get smart with the "smoking gun" comment. I already explained how the game is designed around the top 10% and always has been. If it were commercial suicide it would have happened years ago. PoE has been around for over a decade because this is not the case.

Objectively you are wrong, even with just PoE as an example. You are simply telling me every post that you are wanting the entire game made to suite a more casual player base and while some may want this, the majority do not. The retention in 0.4 speaks to this as well, as it's the best the game has seen so far and it now has better retention than even PoE. This tells me that the majority of people playing enjoy the philosophy they are designing behind.

If anything you saying stuff like this makes you the outlier, as maintaining that high of a player count and % of the initial league launch speaks to it being balanced and not too much of a grind. Funny how that works.

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Japonbu#0742 wrote:

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Sakanabi#6664 wrote:

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Japonbu#0742 wrote:

No amount of "knowledge" or "watching guides" changes the drop rate in the database. I can know exactly how to craft an item, but if the Essences or Fossils don't drop after 50 hours of grinding, my knowledge is useless. Pretending that RNG is a "skill issue" is just elitist gatekeeping.

Maybe that's what people do wrong in SSF. Maybe you shouldn't farm for specific resource but rather play with whatever you already got. The "knowledge" part is about using limited resources for maximum gains.

That philosophy works for Optimization, but not for Functionality.

Optimization (Adaptation): "I didn't get a Life roll on my helmet, so I'll use this Armor roll instead." -> This is where Knowledge shines.

Functionality (Requirement): "My build requires X Unique to convert damage, or Y Currency to 6-link my skill so I can actually kill bosses." -> This is where RNG rules.

If the game doesn't drop the specific currency to socket/link my gear, or the specific Keystone item to make my build viable, I can't just "use what I have." What I "have" is a broken character that can't clear Act 3.

You are describing a "Random Build Generator" playstyle. Most SSF players want a "Solo Progression" playstyle. We want to pick a goal and work towards it, not just drift aimlessly based on whatever random trash the game decides to drop. Knowledge helps you steer the ship, but RNG provides the fuel. Without fuel, you aren't going anywhere.

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Japonbu#0742 wrote:

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It's the design philosophy for the game itself and has been for years even in PoE. If you are wanting a more casual experience there are other offerings out there, but don't try to get smart with the "smoking gun" comment. I already explained how the game is designed around the top 10% and always has been. If it were commercial suicide it would have happened years ago. PoE has been around for over a decade because this is not the case.

Objectively you are wrong, even with just PoE as an example. You are simply telling me every post that you are wanting the entire game made to suite a more casual player base and while some may want this, the majority do not. The retention in 0.4 speaks to this as well, as it's the best the game has seen so far and it now has better retention than even PoE. This tells me that the majority of people playing enjoy the philosophy they are designing behind.

If anything you saying stuff like this makes you the outlier, as maintaining that high of a player count and % of the initial league launch speaks to it being balanced and not too much of a grind. Funny how that works.

You are misinterpreting the data. High retention in Patch 0.4 isn't proof of "Perfect Balance"; it’s proof of "Hype" and "Sunk Cost."

The Honeymoon Phase: This is a brand new game that people have waited years for. Of course everyone is playing it right now. We are all testing the mechanics, exploring the new classes, and seeing what the engine can do.

Paid Access: People paid $30+ to get in. They are going to play to get their money's worth.

Using the launch numbers of a highly anticipated sequel to claim "The grind is perfect" is a massive stretch. Let's see what that retention looks like in League 3 or 4, once the novelty wears off and players are left with just the raw math of the grind.

And regarding the "Top 10%" philosophy: If GGG only wanted to keep the same Top 10% happy, they didn't need to make PoE 2. They could have just kept updating PoE 1. The entire point of a sequel—and the explicit marketing from GGG—was to expand the audience and modernize the friction. Asking for the game to deliver on that promise isn't being "Casual." It's being a customer who listened to the sales pitch.

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Sakanabi#6664 wrote:

If you are trying to play a build which requires specific items you don't already have then you are playing SSF wrong, period. Your league starter should be a char which do not require those items and your next should be based on what you dropped with the first one. That's how it works. That's how we like it.

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rrogan17#2926 wrote:

I mean I'm not. You're just trying to contort the data to make a point that doesnt exist. Have a good one as I'm not wasting time with someone who is doing that. Thanks for agreeing with me by trying to do that though.

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Japonbu#0742 wrote:

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Sakanabi#6664 wrote:

If you are trying to play a build which requires specific items you don't already have then you are playing SSF wrong, period. Your league starter should be a char which do not require those items and your next should be based on what you dropped with the first one. That's how it works. That's how we like it.

That logic is outdated. It worked in PoE 1, but it falls apart in PoE 2.

In PoE 1, "League Starters" had enough base power to clear T16 maps with trash gear found on the floor. In PoE 2, the Base Difficulty is so high that even "Starters" hit a massive wall without decent links, attributes, and resists—which requires currency/crafting that isn't dropping.

And regarding your "Play what drops" philosophy: That assumes that something useful actually drops. If I grind for 50 hours and the "best" thing I find is a mediocre rare with +20 Life, there is no second build. I am just stuck playing the same boring Starter forever because the game never gave me the "key" to unlock a new archetype.

I want Agency (the ability to work towards a goal), not just Opportunism (hoping the RNG gods allow me to have fun).

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Sakanabi#6664 wrote:

I get all yout points but that just show that SSF is not a gamemode for you. Stick to trade and you'll be happy I suppose. In trade you can farm currency and have agency over all of your items after all.