Defensive Problems; Melee, Evasion, Energy Shield, Auto Attacks and Physical Damage

Evasion and Energy shield as a defensive mechanism is severely underpowered against simple mob auto attacks that deal physical damage. The game is significantly more rippy with this setup by default unless you have the following;

1) Block and/or spell block, or an enfeeble/blind setup
2) High leech or LGOH with high DPS or Attacks per second (and vaal pact if the former)
3) Fortify
4) Enduring Cry and Immortal call
5) A granite and/or jade flask up at all times, or sustainable MoM.

For the left hand side of the tree which will focus on either Armor/ES or Armor/HP there is significantly less required to run a build that can sustain mob attacks almost indefinitely.

The issue deals with how the Entropy System works, rather than how Energy Shield works (though the inability to use a potion for the majority of the game doesn't help, but I like ES design). If you are encountering mobs as an evasion character, you will always take a hit as the mob progresses and it will deal relatively high damage. When you take multiples of these hits, before you can regen or leech your lost life back, your energy shield does not recharge and this requires you to either leave the action or die.

This is not something you encounter as frequently as an Armor/ES, and definitely not an Armor/HP character.

The secondary issues come from the way certain things interact with evasions. You cannot evade physical spells, so you require other forms of mitigation, where Armor does not. There are mechanics that spawn on entire mobs that ignore your evasion, but I am not familiar with mechanics that ignore your armor. Physical DOT is significantly worse for you.

I like the game a lot, but I think that the addition of more physical damage in spell damage and also the general boost to mob damage (compensated for by adding fortify and also more HP per level) has hurt ES/Eva melee characters - and they were already the worst in the game, defensively.

Armor and HP is straight up better than evasion/ES - especially for melee.

My question is why?

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ihasmario wrote:

Armor and HP is straight up better than evasion/ES - especially for melee.

My question is why?

Because GGG has been constantly nerfing EV mechanics to compensate for the power of bow users. As a result melee EV has been stone-cold dead for quite some time now.

- Acro + Block nerf
- Ondar's nerf
- Leech nerf (fast leech was very important for EV builds to regen before taking next hit)
- Monster damage increased


On top of that:

- Scion EV wheel is still completely fucking useless
- Trash EV uniques.


Some would think it would make more sense to re-balance bows and/or AR - but GGG's superb 2-man balancing team has decided to, instead, BUFF bow skills, and nerf EV.

AR has always been favored in PoE. Why make all these nerfs to EV and then go on to buff AR formula? Why are the AR & IR supporter uniques always more powerful than EV supporter uniques?

But fret not! GGG will throw EV melee users a bone any day now. Unique Jade flask should be coming soon. Right? I mean it is only 2 years overdue.

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Ceryneian wrote:

But fret not! GGG will throw EV melee users a bone any day now. Unique Jade flask should be coming soon. Right? I mean it is only 2 years overdue.

The most effective way an EVA/ES true-melee character can survive mob hits in the pits of daresso in act 4 cruel is to also run a granite flask. That says it all, does it not?

;)

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For the left hand side of the tree which will focus on either Armor/ES or Armor/HP there is significantly less required to run a build that can sustain mob attacks almost indefinitely.

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Armor and HP is straight up better than evasion/ES - especially for melee.
My question is why?

Because the left, especially the south-west part of the tree doesn't contain any crit. You want DPS (high crit etc.) ? You go to the right (North-east to east) part of the tree. But you have to suck the substantial lower defences.

Ascendancy classes will drive this balance even more in that direction.

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ihasmario wrote:

The issue deals with how the Entropy System works, rather than how Energy Shield works (though the inability to use a potion for the majority of the game doesn't help, but I like ES design). If you are encountering mobs as an evasion character, you will always take a hit as the mob progresses and it will deal relatively high damage. When you take multiples of these hits, before you can regen or leech your lost life back, your energy shield does not recharge and this requires you to either leave the action or die.

This is not something you encounter as frequently as an Armor/ES, and definitely not an Armor/HP character.

I don't quite understand why AR/ES would be better than EV/ES from a theoretical standpoint. With AR/ES you regenerate less shield, right? Because you are constantly hit. You are stating this problem doesn't exist for Armour. Why? That only makes sense if the total damage over time taken with evasion is higher than it is with Armour, which would not make a lot of sense (but maybe is true).

Other than that, I am not sure melee with shield needs to be viable. It sounds like a strange concept to start with, to me, shield asks for not being hit very often (because of its design) and regenerating in between hits. There it should be strongest. If it was competitive in melee, it would thus be OP for an EV/ES caster or ranger, no? Anyways, I think it should maybe be viable (but not the strongest option) for melee, and good for someone who rarely gets hit. Also, as stated, upper right end of the tree has a lot more crit. Also, running pure ES allows you to either run auras on your life pool or become immune to chaos damage. Quite a nice benefit.

I have never played an ES character though, so not sure how valuable my comments are here ;).

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Char1983 wrote:

I don't quite understand why AR/ES would be better than EV/ES from a theoretical standpoint. With AR/ES you regenerate less shield, right? Because you are constantly hit. You are stating this problem doesn't exist for Armour.

Not quite. In combat, where this would actually matter, you will most likely still be hit once every 3 seconds to prevent you from starting to regenerate ES. Also, spell damage can not be evaded, and if you would go ES then you won't take acro for its major penalty too it.

I think acrobatics needs to be redesigned. The drawback just doesn't make sense given its location. Think about it, the east part of the tree (around shadow & ranger) is full of one-handed melee, shield nodes, ES, bow, evasion and life nodes. Implying that these classes (mostly shadow) are also meant for the shield and board / dual wield kind of builds (melee). Yet two of the dead-center keystones have actually anti-synergy with this playstyle. Arrow dodging makes melee evasion less potent, Acrobatics makes ES and block chance less potent. The ES penalty is a real problem for melee, as you need more Hit Points, but there aren't enough life nodes in this area because shadow is about hybrid ES/Life. Its just awkward.

Good points. I honestly never really understood why Acrobatics halves the energy shield.

Acrobatics is way OP, so op that it's given directly to evasion users because ES builds already have the highest min/max potential.

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Char1983 wrote:

Good points. I honestly never really understood why Acrobatics halves the energy shield.

It also doesnt count as a reduction, so you can't use a jewel to avoid this issue.

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Char1983 wrote:

Good points. I honestly never really understood why Acrobatics halves the energy shield.

Because if it didn't, you would, with good gear and Aura, be able to have 30-50% evasion, 8k ES and 30% dodge. It would be insane. In fact, just having even more focus on ES and the node itself woulds till allow for what, 10-12k ES and 30% flat dodge. It would be OP as fudge.