Defensive Problems; Melee, Evasion, Energy Shield, Auto Attacks and Physical Damage

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ihasmario wrote:

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Boem wrote:

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ihasmario wrote:

Here's a question; would an armor character with 60% physical damage reduction, 42% block and 180% life have died?

Yes.

Your arguing life leech action based vs regen afk based, not armor vs evasion based.

Peace,

-Boem-

In a level 68 area? No way.

How to explain this as simple as it can be.

Let's see, sand spiter in this example deals 100 physical damage per hit.

left side armor based ubber-alles marauder has 50% physical mitigation and 42% block

Right side poor shadow scrub has 50% evasion and 30% dodge/12% block

Phase 1

Left side ubber-alles marauder takes 50 physical damage.

Right side poor shadow scrub takes 0 physical damage.

Phase 2

Left side ubber-alles marauder takes 50 physical damage.

Right side poor shadow scrub gets completely OBLITERATED and takes 100 physical damage (obligatory :( )

Phase 3

Left side ubber-alles marauder takes 0 physical damage.(block)

Right side poor shadow scrub takes 0 physical damage.(dodge)

Phase 4

Left side ubber-alles marauder takes 50 physical damage.

Right side poor shadow scrub takes 0 physical damage.

Tricky Phase 5

Left side ubber-alles marauder takes 50 physical damage.

Right side poor shadow scrub takes 0 physical damage.(block, count's as a hit, entropy is reset to 0 value)

Continuation of tricky Phase 5 aka Phase 6

Left side ubber-alles marauder takes 50 physical damage.

Right side poor shadow scrub takes 0 physical damage.(entropy is reset, remember?)

total damage taken count.

Marauder ubber alles : 250 physical damage

Poor shadow scrub : 100

Marauder is clearly victorious because you know, he is using armor!(and he has a ton of life!)

Peace,

-Boem-

edit :

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mynameisonlyforthegods wrote:

You value armor too high. With armor and full end charges giving me all in all 40%+ phys reduction, I can BARELY afk tank white mobs in act 3 Sarn city. And even that is mainly because I got 270% or such life on tree and an insane life reg.

No no. No life regen, that's cheating in this example. We were clearly comparing AR vs EV with the same action based life-leach build in this example.

Thus, both get zero regen. Can't really compare apples with oranges now can we.

Didnt read thread but from my personal experience I think evasion is useless garbage for higher and highest tier maps

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Boem wrote:

This is a contradiction, i hope you realize that.

Why did GGG put crit nodes on the evasion part?

Answer : because they have less overall damage % increases or lower value's, in order to get the "assasins" spike damage arche-type they require crit to both perform at the same level of effective dps as the left side of the tree as-well as fulfilling their arch-type roll of non-consistent damage output.

your arguing that evasion should have higher dps always, that's not the case. They have the same dps out-put in a good balanced state but the nature of that damage is spiked instead of reliant.

You honestly can't believe that a crit build has the same effective DPS as a non-crit build? Is that what I just read?

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Boem wrote:

I don't think you fully understand how the entire system performs or is build up. Specifically how "more" multipliers function for the left side or even armor.

Do you have experience with left side based tank builds, honest question since i can't imagine somebody with that experience proclaiming what you are stating.

You a funny guy Boem. Yeah ofc I've played AR tanks before.

Have you played EV melee on high-end maps before? I'm curious because people arguing melee EV is as strong as AR usually are: a) only playing low-tier maps, or b) playing hit & run "melee" builds.

What's the highest content you've played with EV MELEE?

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Ceryneian wrote:

What's the highest content you've played with EV MELEE?

Tier 13/14 with 120%+ modifiers.

Is my epeen good enough for you?

I am actually pushing a character into those high tier maps currently with 3% physical reduction from armor and 16% evasion, though it's a ranged character but i can facetank most hits with "sub-par" gear for the content.(ill be buying some upgrades soon to facetank the boss hits soonish)

EHP buffer > primary defense source imo.

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Ceryneian wrote:

You honestly can't believe that a crit build has the same effective DPS as a non-crit build? Is that what I just read?

Read my post again, i specifically mentioned a "good balance state" to uphold that argument, which is accurate.

Remove multi crit from item slots and yes, crit vs non-crit with similar investment into dps would have the same damage output "over time".(if build correctly/properly)

Tooltip is just that, a tooltip.

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Ceryneian wrote:

b) playing hit & run "melee" builds.

You mean to say, people playing evasion are playing with respect to the arch-type of an assasin?

Such fools, smite them hard!

Peace,

-Boem-

Im not really sure on what side i am.
armor-
1) regeneration kicks in after getting hit by first mitigated attack.
2)endurance charges works really great with higher amounts of armor (with 60% armor and 7 end charges it becomes 88% !!)
3) it works against phys spells (evasion doesn't)

evasion-
1)evasion evades elemental attack's damage too (armor doesn't)
2)evasion mitigates attack's critical strike chance. (with 50%- monsters hit chance are halved and crit chance after being hited are also halved (double dipping))

conclusion-
evasion is quite more better against attackers, but sucks in some circumstances, and armor- its more all rounder but it gets crited more often and receives more damage against ele attacks, but not so gibby as evasion is from time to time.

spell/attack block/dodge solves evasion drawbacks.
unyielding is basically the only direct armor's drawback reduction.

edit: It would be nice to see some hybrid defense and es discussions here too.

Sure bro. At the end of the day you are weaker than an AR build.

Funny how you are switching to "range" to "facetank" lol.

The fact that you keep trying to argue that ev melee is stronger than ar is kinda disturbing.

Maybe 2 years ago you could try and argue that, but come back to earth please.

The vast majority of melee builds in HC leagues have ALWAYS been AR.

Even before the EV nerfs, AR was always the most popular. Guess what the top keystone was consistently every league - that's right, IR.

I guess they are all idiots, because you are the only one who has figured out that nerfed ev melee is stronger than AR.

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Ceryneian wrote:

Sure bro. At the end of the day you are weaker than an AR build.

Funny how you are switching to "range" to "facetank" lol.

The fact that you keep trying to argue that ev melee is stronger than ar is kinda disturbing.

Maybe a year ago you could try and argue that, but come back to earth please.

The vast majority of melee builds in HC leagues have ALWAYS been AR.

Even before the EV nerfs, AR was always the most popular. Guess what the top keystone was consistently every league - that's right, IR.

I guess they are all idiots, because you are the only one who has figured out that nerfed ev melee is stronger than AR.

The fact you think i consider one stronger then the other, shows how vastly moot it is to try and convey my point to you.

Have at it, evasion sux, go play armor.

As to my example, what i am currently playing, i though we were talking defenses? So if i can facetank hits with the defenses i am using it should be irrelevant if i am playing a ranged character or a melee, no?(lets neglect the fact i am not using fortify and still doing what i do)

Combined EHP > one-sided investment in a primary defense

Peace,

-Boem-

Well what then are you trying to say? That EV melee is "viable"?. No one said it is not.

Read what I wrote on the 2nd page:

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No one is saying melee EV can't be done. But OP is asking why AR melee is better than EV melee.

You seem to enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing, and are not even answering the OP's question. Read what he wrote on the 1st page.

No one cares that EV melee can be "viable". I can play a naked Witch with 3k life and say it is "viable".

And you keep harping about EHP. AR melee builds can get high damage avoidance too. There's this thing called block. They can also easily get an ~50% EV % as well by using Blind.

Ok then to answer the OP, no melee AR is not better then EV melee, it is different.

Peace,

-Boem-