Defensive Problems; Melee, Evasion, Energy Shield, Auto Attacks and Physical Damage

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Cergic wrote:

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caboom wrote:

not much of an ES or eva user but removing the ES penalty from acrobatics could probably solve many of the problems ES/eva have

Yeah, no.

Yes.

But of course, there are still those other issues that I posted before in here.

I dont see why being pure evasion based should be a fail as long as you stack enough hp to survive one shots. This is of course the problem with building on that side of the tree. The only way i can see to solve it is that ggg put a large health cluster stacked behind some good phys one handed nodes on the ranger/shadow side of the tree (no jewel slot nearby for that lioneye's fall).

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Boem wrote:

Yes dps can increase EHP levels by virtue of reducing a battles length, but that is not somehow tied to evasion, that's intrinsic to all EHP vs dps balance decisions.

If your not one shotting packs, then you have to compensate somewhere else for that factor.

It's an absurd conclusion that evasion users should have higher dps then their AR counter-parts simply because they are evasion.(since defensive forms are not limited to any part of the tree or intrinsic character development)

See I disagree with what you wrote there, and I am puzzled. Battle length IS tied to survivability for evasion, more so than to armor.

Entropy counter increases for each hit attempt you receive. Once it passes 100 your evade is forced to fail.

Doesn't matter what the starting entropy value is - the more hit attempts you are taking the sooner your evade WILL fail and force you to take a hit.

AR builds on the other hand do not have this mechanic.

So why are you saying battle time is not related to EV survivability?

Sure you have some chance to dodge/block when your EV fails, but that doesn't change the fact that the longer an EV build spends vs. enemies the more likely you are to take hits. So DPS and battle time is more important for EV builds instead of AR.

It's interesting how you think my conclusion that EV users should have higher dps than AR counter-parts is "absurd".

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Ceryneian wrote:

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Boem wrote:

Yes dps can increase EHP levels by virtue of reducing a battles length, but that is not somehow tied to evasion, that's intrinsic to all EHP vs dps balance decisions.

If your not one shotting packs, then you have to compensate somewhere else for that factor.

It's an absurd conclusion that evasion users should have higher dps then their AR counter-parts simply because they are evasion.(since defensive forms are not limited to any part of the tree or intrinsic character development)

See I disagree with what you wrote there, and I am puzzled. Battle length IS tied to survivability for evasion, more so than to armor.

Entropy counter increases for each hit attempt you receive. Once it passes 100 your evade is forced to fail.

Doesn't matter what the starting entropy value is - the more hit attempts you are taking the sooner your evade WILL fail and force you to take a hit.

AR builds on the other hand do not have this mechanic.

So why are you saying battle time is not related to EV survivability?

Sure you have some chance to dodge/block when your EV fails, but that doesn't change the fact that the longer an EV build spends vs. enemies the more likely you are to take hits.

It's interesting how you think my conclusion that EV users should have higher dps than AR counter-parts is "absurd".

Because if your not build to sustain a single hit, your build is "stupid".

Further more in end-game if your not build to refill your life-pool back to 100% asap after taking a hit, it could be considered a "not-nice-build".

This goes for both armor users and for evasion users. There is no discrepancy here that favors one over the other. Over time both defense options mitigate the same portion of incomming damage.

And building to

1) sustain
2) recover

those incomming hits is a key part to a successful build.

A battle could go on for an hour on most if not all of my build. They are build to endure end-game.

So yes, high dps being tied to evasion = absurd.

Peace,

-Boem-

Nope. I don't agree with what you wrote. High dps is indeed tied to evasion, especially for melee. Sure, it doesn't matter on low-mid maps where the monster damage is fine, heck I could argue even a build with zero defenses would be fine.

Past that, AR melee vs. EV melee start to diverge.

Once EV melee encounters damage at it's one-shot threshold (which is significantly lower than an AR melee's one-shot threshold), time in battle and DPS are super important because otherwise - guess what - you are dead.

I continue to be amused that you keep saying it is "absurd" that EV builds should need higher DPS than AR builds.

I guess you should be telling GGG they've been doing the tree WRONG then - they need to increase crit and damage nodes on the AR side of the tree, and reduce them on the EV side. Yeah, why the FK did GGG put so much more crit on the EV side instead of AR side.

That way AR side can get access to more life nodes AND higher damage nodes, while EV builds will have access to less life nodes AND lower damage nodes.

Would make sense because, as you continue to say, it is absolutely "absurd" that high DPS should be tied to EV.

*rolls eyes*

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Ceryneian wrote:

I guess you should be telling GGG they've been doing the tree WRONG then - they need to increase crit and damage nodes on the AR side of the tree, and reduce them on the EV side. Yeah, why the FK did GGG put so much more crit on the EV side instead of AR side.

That way AR side can get access to more life nodes AND higher damage nodes, while EV builds will have access to less life nodes AND lower damage nodes.

Would make sense because, as you continue to say, it is absolutely "absurd" that high DPS should be tied to EV.

*rolls eyes*

This is a contradiction, i hope you realize that.

Why did GGG put crit nodes on the evasion part?

Answer : because they have less overall damage % increases or lower value's, in order to get the "assasins" spike damage arche-type they require crit to both perform at the same level of effective dps as the left side of the tree as-well as fulfilling their arch-type roll of non-consistent damage output.

your arguing that evasion should have higher dps always, that's not the case. They have the same dps out-put in a good balanced state but the nature of that damage is spiked instead of reliant.

The left side stands for the combatant strategical arche-type. The right side stands for the entropic arch-type with inconsistency's in performance.

Both hold value and have strengths and weaknesses.

I don't think you fully understand how the entire system performs or is build up. Specifically how "more" multipliers function for the left side or even armor.

Do you have experience with left side based tank builds, honest question since i can't imagine somebody with that experience proclaiming what you are stating.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : it's noteworthy that "crit multiplier" and how its arranged is the main culprit for inconsistencies in this model, ultimately functioning as a "more%" multiplier located on gear for a side that already has a good amount of it incorporated in it's main foundation.(passive tree + support gem)

I just copped my first death on a very successful evasion character- it wasn't my fault or GGG's fault, because it was due to a power surge. My computer dropped out, and my character died before the server realised.

It's a little disappointing as I was looking forward to seeing how far I could go without dying - and it's just not the same now, but luckily I've made the choice to play the softcore league this time around.

However, the nature of the death and the nature of my character does paint a picture of the problem with evasion. Allow me to paint the scene;

I was clearing the map very quickly - it was just a dunes, and my damage was quite high. I was by no means a glass cannon - with something in the region of 55% evade, 30% dodge, 180% life and 12% block.

A blue pack of spitters emerges, there's maybe 12 of them. I crash. Had I been there to fight, they would have died quickly. Had I been able to pot (with a granite flask of all things, lol), they would have been unable to kill me. It was not a difficult fight.

Here's a question; would an armor character with 60% physical damage reduction, 42% block and 180% life have died?

Therein lies the problem - physical damage autoattacks are simply overtuned for evasion. Potions can fix the problem, as can a handy CWDT IC setup with enough end charges, as can clear speed.

However, a character that would have otherwise been very tanky died in the few seconds it took the server to realise I was offline. To physical autoattacks. From regular mobs.

:)

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ihasmario wrote:

Here's a question; would an armor character with 60% physical damage reduction, 42% block and 180% life have died?

Yes.

Your arguing life leech action based vs regen afk based, not armor vs evasion based.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

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ihasmario wrote:

Here's a question; would an armor character with 60% physical damage reduction, 42% block and 180% life have died?

Yes.

Your arguing life leech action based vs regen afk based, not armor vs evasion based.

Peace,

-Boem-

In a level 68 area? No way.

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ihasmario wrote:

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Boem wrote:

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ihasmario wrote:

Here's a question; would an armor character with 60% physical damage reduction, 42% block and 180% life have died?

Yes.

Your arguing life leech action based vs regen afk based, not armor vs evasion based.

Peace,

-Boem-

In a level 68 area? No way.

You value armor too high. With armor and full end charges giving me all in all 40%+ phys reduction, I can BARELY afk tank white mobs in act 3 Sarn city. And even that is mainly because I got 270% or such life on tree and an insane life reg.