PoE's ultimate issue is the Beta never stopped

Nerfs are here to keep Standard campers in check LALU

What a truely reductive bad faith argument this thread's premise is.

POE is a live service game we were never once promised a permanently finished or polished single player experience. So the premise is bad faith.

Then trying to paint continual content addition intended to give old players new fresh things to do, as some sort of 10 year failed attempt to finish the game is just a reductive false narrative.

I feel like there are things I very much agree with the OP about if the premise wasn't so intellectually dishonest that its impossible to take the rest of the post seriously.

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alhazred70 wrote:

What a truely reductive bad faith argument this thread's premise is.

POE is a live service game we were never once promised a permanently finished or polished single player experience. So the premise is bad faith.

Then trying to paint continual content addition intended to give old players new fresh things to do, as some sort of 10 year failed attempt to finish the game is just a reductive false narrative.

I feel like there are things I very much agree with the OP about if the premise wasn't so intellectually dishonest that its impossible to take the rest of the post seriously.

Bad faith and false narrative? Ok, answer 2 questions for me

#1 What is the difference between a Beta version and a full version

#2 If GGG operated PoE as such =

a) Provide hotfixes to bugs, glitches and errors

b) Provide new content to PoE (MTX,Temp League to Core)

................................then what is wrong with sticking to specifically that formula?


It's as if people get so caught up with the current game; you forget the base game itself. That's like focusing on a building's top levels while ignoring the complaints about the foundation, wall joints, wiring and plumbing. The game was "finished" over 10 years ago when the Beta ended. My issue is why are the nerfs aka "balance changes" still occuring when they should have been done long ago, with cap limits to safeguard any new content to come. To prevent the need for nerfs to happen to players.

Let's say you have a house or a car that was finished Sept 2013 and you had the keys handed to you. Are you expecting those same makers to come back every few months and make changes inside and out? No, right? Only thing you'd be expecting is a recall if any issues and repairs to be done immediately and new products & parts to be made for it such as accessories like chrome trim pillars, etc.

So how is it bad faith to expect a video game outside of beta to be treated as a finished product, adding to and not taking away? I'm clearly not the only one who feels this way, in fact here's one or two examples from a different point of view yet the same conclusion:

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RockGod wrote:

GGG picked an interesting time to reset the direction of their game.

I'm not going to debate good change bad change, but there is no denying they spent a long time going in one direction and this League is choosing a new path.

One could argue that by making the game more Zoomy and somewhat casual resulted in increased numbers as the game hit new highs with each successive league.

GGG understands their business, and if they feel that losing half of their player base is good for their core business, then best of luck to them.

They make their choices as the Developer and I make my own choice as to whether the game is entertaining me or if I should look elsewhere.

I've never been anywhere close to the 1% elite nor wish to be, and I don't want to be on that particular treadmill.

Once it becomes more work than fun for me, its time to rethink what I am doing.

Diablo 2:Resurrected is coming out soon, and I can buy it for the price of a Single MTX or supporter pack in PoE.

New World is shipping next month, Lost Ark is coming, Last Epoch will be multiplayer soon.

There is a lot of choice coming, best of luck GGG.

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Morgasming wrote:

The one thing that stuck with me during the QnA this time was that Chris said, "It's a given that PoE 2 will be a success".

Is a success a game with half the playerbase?

I don't think his owners would agree with him, so we'll get to find out together.

Ultimately I feel as though what they did this patch was a slap in the face to a lot of players. Many people might never come back from the highs of 3.13 that they felt. I worry that this isn't just people leaving for a league, but that they're leaving for a while.

We'll only know by the end of the year with their financials. But I assure you things will change if they lose half their profits (just based on playerbase losses right now). Even if they lose 25% it would be a complete disaster.

Regardless of where you land on nerfs or buffs or whatever the way GGG went about doing this was wrong. And those people might now have some spite towards the company. I know I've not been happy for a year of their design choices and communication. But I'll still play for now. But next league has to be something truly special to get me back. Otherwise I'll just try something else.

GGG's hubris may be their undoing. There's no guarantees in life. PoE 2 with half the players from 3.13 would be an unmitigated disaster. If they lose customers for life being tone deaf and sweeping in their gutting of average player power, then they're unlikely to ever see them as paying customers again.

I know I wont be spending another penny because they simply don't know how to balance their game in an interesting way. Archetypes simply die under their vision to never come back again. Their idea of balance is sad. They sure made my friendslist sad. GLHF everyone.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3151453 - GGG's Regrets of 3.15 Patch - Player Backlash

There's MANY more examples but we keep getting to this SAME point in time with every big patch GGG puts out. It's like a merry go round with them. Look at the history of each major patch since 1.0 or at least 2.0 if you need further proof. None of these protests would be an issue if they stopped nerfing and let the game be. (not talking about MTX, Bugfixes or new added content)

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Rippster wrote:

One day a developer will finally get it and buff up instead of nerf down.

One day.

A good quote from another post
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3009029 - Why Nerfs insted of global caps?

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WoT_Seanchan wrote:

Let's say you have a house or a car that was finished Sept 2013 and you had the keys handed to you. Are you expecting those same makers to come back every few months and make changes inside and out?

I am if they tell me from the outset that the plan is for the house to be in constant development, and it's part of the license for freely using the house that they're allowed to do so.

I mean come on, it isn't even my house! It's their house. I haven't bought it; it's not even for sale. Why on earth would I build up expectations that they're not allowed to change their house?

You can expect whatever you like, but expectations are just thoughts in your head. They're not inherently correct, and they don't bind other people.

Sad to understand that this thread like many others probably won't make any difference, but damn, if only human race wasn't made to be so ignorant to what's under their noses.. Change for the sake of change, killing builds to introduce variety and spitting in your face to brisk you up..

Remembered another game that never came out of beta since it's release in the early 2000's, it seems to have about 120 heroes now but in fact what seemed like only 12 viable it's entire history - won't call, everyone knows.

And ggg communicating with their players through their own forum seems a taboo as well, changes have to be guess-based like who could tell you what's not working...

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forHordeforeverandalways wrote:

Sad to understand that this thread like many others probably won't make any difference, but damn, if only human race wasn't made to be so ignorant to what's under their noses.. Change for the sake of change, killing builds to introduce variety and spitting in your face to brisk you up..

that's because all you do is play standard while 99% of the game's population starts over every season and doesn't have to give a damn about that.

if you want a game that doesn't change, there are plenty of those go play them.

If you want a game that only "nerfs up" never down. There's Diablo 3 go play that and enjoy it for 3 days because thats what you get when you only nerf up.

Arguably that has happened to POE and is a severe issue with this game as well. Despite "nerfing down" they've not done it nearly enough and the game in trade is a clown fiesta of loot dumpsters.


Now if you want them to balance thoughtfully and with more of an eye for normal invested player base instead of balancing the entire game around streamers and people with 14h a day to play then yeah I'm on board for that discussion. If you want them to acknowledge that Standard players need some love, and maybe less destructive bullshit, I'm down for that as well. Maybe they even need to have a sit down and a series of player polls and ask themselves if POE players need 6 Hard modes and 1 Ultra casual mode. If standard needs to be a completely ignored afterthought or if they could maybe benefit the entire game by treating standard players as a valuable part of the base instead of red headed step children.

This is a difficult subject. I for one would also like a more stable game. Saying that PoE is in a perpetual Beta-state is fair, and largely accurate.

On the other hand, I think the continual change - the "churn" if you will - is what has kept it going. I suspect that absent this constant change-up, the game would have died off long ago.

I just accept it for what it is, as it keeps the game running so I can continue to play in standard.

I don't like it - but I don't think the game would still exist if it was in a finished state.

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alhazred70 wrote:

if you want a game that doesn't change, there are plenty of those go play them.

If you want a game that only "nerfs up" never down. There's Diablo 3 go play that and enjoy it for 3 days because thats what you get when you only nerf up.

Arguably that has happened to POE and is a severe issue with this game as well. Despite "nerfing down" they've not done it nearly enough and the game in trade is a clown fiesta of loot dumpsters.


Now if you want them to balance thoughtfully and with more of an eye for normal invested player base instead of balancing the entire game around streamers and people with 14h a day to play then yeah I'm on board for that discussion. If you want them to acknowledge that Standard players need some love, and maybe less destructive bullshit, I'm down for that as well. Maybe they even need to have a sit down and a series of player polls and ask themselves if POE players need 6 Hard modes and 1 Ultra casual mode. If standard needs to be a completely ignored afterthought or if they could maybe benefit the entire game by treating standard players as a valuable part of the base instead of red headed step children.

Exactly. Now you're getting it. That "less destructive bullshit" = player aimed nerfs. The game doesn't to be constantly nerfed just to be considered keeping it fresh. All these "balance changes" aka nerfs, is telling the players that the game is still in beta and hasn't finished yet.


To keep the game fresh simply

1)Add new MTX (as they do)
2)Add new / different content (as they do)
3)Add fixes to glitches and errors (as they somewhat do)

Does anyone really disagree with those 3 steps??

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If you want a game that only "nerfs up" never down. There's Diablo 3 go play that

It's that exact attitude that the dude Don Matterick had. Remember him? The EX big shot that USED to work for Microsoft, until he made a very similar statement to the players. Hopefully GGG doesn't share that same sentiment

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Sabranic_SilverDeth wrote:

This is a difficult subject. I for one would also like a more stable game. Saying that PoE is in a perpetual Beta-state is fair, and largely accurate.

On the other hand, I think the continual change - the "churn" if you will - is what has kept it going. I suspect that absent this constant change-up, the game would have died off long ago.

I just accept it for what it is, as it keeps the game running so I can continue to play in standard.

I don't like it - but I don't think the game would still exist if it was in a finished state.

See that's exactly what I'm asking for, yet people seem to be up in arms. Stability. Everyone who's objected can't seem to answer the question of what is the difference between a game being in beta mode and what PoE is currently? They all seem to keep confusing "fresh and updated content" with nerfs.

As much as I hate to say, a perfect example would be D2R. They are periodically adding new elements to the game and maintaining bugs & error fixes when needed; all while NOT nerfing and changing the base of the game itself.

*The thing that sucks about how D2R is the ignorance of only adding new stuff and applying it to half of the game (expansion) instead of classic too (shared stash/ terror zones). If they simply did those, I'd still be playing D2R even now.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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WoT_Seanchan wrote:

Let's say you have a house or a car that was finished Sept 2013 and you had the keys handed to you. Are you expecting those same makers to come back every few months and make changes inside and out?

I am if they tell me from the outset that the plan is for the house to be in constant development, and it's part of the license for freely using the house that they're allowed to do so.

I mean come on, it isn't even my house! It's their house. I haven't bought it; it's not even for sale. Why on earth would I build up expectations that they're not allowed to change their house?

You can expect whatever you like, but expectations are just thoughts in your head. They're not inherently correct, and they don't bind other people.

Well that's kind of a moot point, cause if we can't expect to have a stable and balanced game then they can't expect people to want to play it. I'd love to see you try explaining Expectations to Tencent's shareholders about GGG's player retention numbers being volatile. They want to see stability as well.........

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WoT_Seanchan wrote:

To keep the game fresh simply

1)Add new MTX (as they do)
2)Add new / different content (as they do)
3)Add fixes to glitches and errors (as they somewhat do)

Does anyone really disagree with those 3 steps??

Sounds like a dead mobile game with very limited playerbase where people just play only meta. You need to shake things to make it work, like nerf overperforming/overused builds, so people try something new. Its obvious.