Why POE2’s Direction Is Worrying for Veterans and Newcomers Alike

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Kaukus1#7461 wrote:

This is a flawed comparison. Yes, Nioh introduces tougher versions of bosses with higher health in NG+ modes, but the core difference lies in how the fights remain engaging. The mechanics stay dynamic, requiring precision and adaptability throughout. The longer fights in Nioh aren’t artificially slow—they demand focus and mastery. In PoE2, however, longer fights often feel tedious because they’re a result of bloated health pools rather than mechanically engaging combat.

Nioh has 20 times more bloated health pools, a boss can take as long as 9 minutes even with a good build. Now carefully explain how the Arbiter of Ash or hell, just Count Geonor does NOT require any precision in mechanical gameplay?

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Whether I completed Nioh or Nioh 2 past their standard campaigns is irrelevant because this discussion isn’t about my personal achievements—it’s about the systems in these games. Resorting to an argument about my credentials instead of addressing the actual points made is a diversion, not a rebuttal.

Your progress in Nioh 1 & 2 are relevant because you brought them up as an appeal to authority but now you are giving multiple false statements about the meta of Nioh games. Don't boast about being good at games you're not good at.

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This is a slippery slope fallacy. Wanting the campaign to be more engaging or better paced doesn’t mean asking to “skip the ride.” Campaigns in seasonal ARPGs aren’t the main draw—they’re the setup for the actual core gameplay, which is the endgame. Improving campaign pacing respects the fact that players will repeat it every few months, while unnecessarily dragging it out only leads to burnout.

Your comparison to Blizzard games like WoW and Diablo 4 is irrelevant. Those games failed because they abandoned their core audiences to chase broader appeal, not because they made campaigns optional or better-paced. Misrepresenting the argument doesn’t make your point valid.

Patently false. WoW concentrates on milking its core audience for more money while giving them WoW tokens so they can skip playing the game while simultaneously whining that the game is tedious. Sounds a lot like you. D4 on the other hand gave players the ability to instakill bosses and skip campaigns, the exact things you want for PoE 2 and the game is now dead.

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The complaints aren’t about difficulty in principle; they’re about how it’s implemented. PoE2 often mistakes bloated health pools for challenge. Mechanical precision and decision-making are core to good difficulty design, but if a fight drags on unnecessarily because of inflated stats, it stops being engaging. Long doesn’t mean hard—it just means slow, and that’s the real issue people are addressing.

Again you're lying. Because people complaining about the difficulty are complaining because they are stuck at a boss. Just look at the many Sekhema Trial or Jamanra complaints. They're not saying they're tedious, they're saying its too difficult.

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This is nothing more than an attempt to discredit the argument by attacking the person. My ability to solo or co-op in Nioh doesn’t change the fact that PoE2’s pacing issues stem from bloated mechanics rather than meaningful preparation or precision.

So if you as a person does not factor in to the argument, why did you bring up your gaming hours in other games as an appeal to authority that you are indeed a gaming expert and know what you're talking about? You're the one who brought yourself to the argument as a person and now you're trying to tell the rest of us to stop talking about you. Not to mention you just recently said people who don't have enough PoE 1 playtime are not experts enough to talk about PoE 2. Again another appeal to your supreme authority.

I'm questioning your appeal to authority because it seems you know nothing about the games you claim to have played and have apparently skipped their gameplay with abusing co-op and summons.

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Here’s an example: PoE1 allows players to prepare for challenging fights by crafting specific flasks, optimizing resistances, and tuning builds with jewels or gear that counter specific mechanics. These systems are dynamic and creative, letting players adapt in a variety of ways. In PoE2, preparation often feels reduced to basic tweaks, like swapping charms, which lacks the same depth. While PoE2 does allow for some preparation, the systems feel restrictive and oversimplified compared to the creativity PoE1 encouraged.

Quit dodging the question. Give a SPECIFIC example. How do you prepare for Searing Exarch that is so very different from preparing against Arbiter of Ash right now?

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If a build becomes powerful enough to kill a boss quickly, it’s usually a reward for extensive planning and effort, not an attempt to avoid challenge.

So you just admitted in a roundabout way that you indeed would prefer that all bosses are 1 second loot pinatas that you can just skip with your build. I'm sorry if PoE 2 bosses are too mechanically difficult for you. Try Partying up with better players like you did in Elden Ring and Nioh, that might help.

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The feedback here is about improving pacing, depth, and meaningful challenge—not about skipping difficulty or trivializing the game. Addressing these points directly would be more constructive than deflecting with fallacies and assumptions.

Your core argument in the OP is to argue that the very basis of PoE 2 is flawed which is simply untrue. I agree that the game needs balance tweaking and bug fixes, absolutely. But that was not your original argument, now you're just moving goalposts.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

Flawed idea? Friend, I've seen hundreds of threads now from people just like you demanding that literally every single change PoE2 made from PoE1 with the sole exception of graphical fidelity and animation fundamentals reverted back to a carbon copy of PoE1.

This is a gross misrepresentation. Wanting PoE2 to retain the *core systems* that made PoE1 successful isn’t the same as asking for a carbon copy. PoE2 should evolve, but evolution doesn’t mean abandoning what works. The feedback provided by veterans is about improving pacing, preparation, and creativity while avoiding tedious mechanics like bloated fights and unnecessarily restrictive systems. Simplifying this to “people just want PoE1 again” ignores the nuanced points being made.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

Your idea of "core systems" is different from everyone else's as evinced by the fact that you're calling on everyone who hasn't beaten Ultra Uber Mega Pinnacle content in PoE1 to shut their faceholes and uninstall the game forever.

Strawman. No one has said that players who haven’t beaten pinnacle content aren’t allowed to voice opinions. The argument is that PoE2 shouldn’t alienate the core audience that built the franchise. These players are the backbone of the community, providing consistent engagement and support over a decade. Designing a game that ignores this group in favor of players who might not stick around is short-sighted. Constructive feedback isn’t about gatekeeping—it’s about ensuring the game respects its legacy while broadening its appeal.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

Has it occurred to you that Grinding Gear doesn't want people to do that? That maybe the new game is designed in such a way as to try and entice players who were turned off by PoE1's impossible impenetrability and vicious hostility into trying this new offering and finding themselves falling in love with the parts of PoE the first game no longer adequately serves?

This assumes that the “impenetrability” of PoE1 is inherently bad, but the complexity is what made it successful. PoE1 thrived because it rewarded creativity, mastery, and experimentation. Making PoE2 simpler or more accessible doesn’t automatically make it better—especially if it sacrifices the depth and freedom that brought players to the series in the first place. Complexity can coexist with accessibility if done correctly, but the current changes don’t achieve that balance.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

I don't get to play new leagues. Not really. Oh, I can start a character and do the campaign, experience the basic introductory mechanics of a league, but I cannot participate in a new league 'properly' because in order to do that you need to be able to secure a thousand divines by the end of League Start Weekend and craft a build that can output over a billion Pinnacle DPS with EHP counts in the millions.

This is hyperbole. You don’t need a billion DPS or a thousand divines to experience endgame content in PoE1. While top-tier builds exist, the game offers a wide range of viable builds for most content. Players who invest time and learn the systems can clear challenging content without reaching absurd power levels. The notion that PoE1 locks casual players out of the endgame is exaggerated—it’s about understanding the systems, which is part of the game’s appeal. If you’re struggling, it’s not because the systems are broken; it’s because you’re not engaging with them effectively.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

Counterpoint: Elden Ring "alienated its dedicated community" of Dark Souls folks to "chase broader appeal" by creating an open-world exploration-focused version of their game.

This comparison doesn’t hold. *Elden Ring* succeeded because it retained the core mechanics of *Dark Souls*—tight combat, meaningful progression, and deep lore—while adding a new layer of exploration. It expanded without sacrificing what made the franchise beloved. PoE2, on the other hand, risks discarding PoE1’s strengths, like build diversity, meaningful preparation, and fast-paced gameplay, in favor of slower, less dynamic systems. *Elden Ring* built upon its foundation; PoE2 is undermining its own.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

PoE1 has no 'depth'. Not anymore. What some refer to as 'depth' is merely different levels of failure. Creatively combining items, passives and skills to create interesting emergent effects and behaviors - designing a cool build - stopped being a thing anybody cared about in PoE1 more than five years ago.

This is simply false. PoE1’s depth lies in its freedom to experiment with builds, craft unique solutions for encounters, and adapt strategies for different challenges. The fact that some players chase meta builds doesn’t mean the game lacks creativity—it reflects the breadth of options available. Many players still enjoy creating off-meta builds or exploring unconventional strategies, which PoE1 actively supports through its intricate systems. Calling this “failure” is dismissive of what makes PoE1 unique in the ARPG genre.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

PoE survived. Whether it thrived is up for debate. It persisted within its niche, but it was, and is, never going to grow much further.

Calling PoE1’s success “survival” ignores reality. PoE1 has been one of the most successful ARPGs for over a decade, consistently expanding its player base and innovating within its genre. Its sustained success proves that complexity and depth aren’t barriers—they’re its strengths. PoE2 doesn’t need to abandon those strengths to grow. It needs to evolve them in a way that respects both new and existing players.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

Trapping the new game inside the festering, rotting cancerous carcass of the old one does nothing save ensure that the new game will choke and die.

This inflammatory statement ignores that PoE1’s systems are what made the franchise successful in the first place. PoE2 isn’t about “escaping” PoE1—it’s about building on its foundation. If PoE2 throws away the core principles of freedom, creativity, and depth in favor of appealing to transient players, it risks losing both veterans and newcomers. A game that abandons its identity for the sake of being “different” doesn’t grow—it collapses.



Your arguments rely on misrepresentations, exaggerations, and personal attacks. PoE2 doesn’t need to be PoE1 all over again, but it also shouldn’t abandon the elements that made PoE1 great. Respecting the core audience while evolving the game is the only way forward. Ignoring this balance risks creating a game that appeals to no one in the long term.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

Nioh has 20 times more bloated health pools, a boss can take as long as 9 minutes even with a good build. Now carefully explain how the Arbiter of Ash or hell, just Count Geonor does NOT require any precision in mechanical gameplay?

Your comparison is flawed. Nioh’s "longer" boss fights are challenging because they reward precision (And they arene even that long), adaptability, and the proper use of mechanics.
You’re constantly engaged because every moment matters—dodging attacks, timing your strikes, and managing Ki effectively. In PoE2, longer fights often feel tedious because they’re stretched out by bloated health pools, not by engaging mechanics.

Take Count Geonor as an example: while it requires some level of precision, much of the fight boils down to enduring his inflated health rather than genuinely dynamic gameplay. That’s the core difference—Nioh uses mechanics to create meaningful difficulty, while PoE2 often relies on artificially prolonging fights.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

Your progress in Nioh 1 & 2 are relevant because you brought them up as an appeal to authority but now you are giving multiple false statements about the meta of Nioh games. Don't boast about being good at games you're not good at.

This is yet another attempt to discredit the argument by attacking the person. My personal progress in Nioh or Nioh 2 doesn’t invalidate the systems I’m discussing. The points I raised about pacing and mechanics stand regardless of whether I soloed every boss or used co-op. You’re focusing on me rather than addressing the substance of the argument—this is a textbook ad hominem fallacy. If you can’t refute the points directly, trying to undermine credibility only weakens your position.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

Patently false. WoW concentrates on milking its core audience for more money while giving them WoW tokens so they can skip playing the game while simultaneously whining that the game is tedious. Sounds a lot like you.

This is a misrepresentation of both WoW and my argument. The core issue isn’t about “skipping content” or “milking players”—it’s about designing systems that respect the player’s time and provide engaging experiences. In PoE2, dragging out the campaign doesn’t add value, especially in a seasonal ARPG where the campaign is repeated multiple times. The comparison to WoW tokens or D4 is irrelevant because neither directly addresses the critique of pacing and engagement in PoE2.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

Again you're lying. Because people complaining about the difficulty are complaining because they are stuck at a boss. Just look at the many Sekhema Trial or Jamanra complaints. They're not saying they're tedious, they're saying its too difficult.

You’re conflating difficulty with poor implementation. Players struggling with bosses like Sekhema Trial or Jamanra aren’t necessarily finding them “too hard” in the traditional sense—they’re frustrated by mechanics that feel punishing rather than rewarding. True difficulty challenges players to adapt, plan, and execute strategies, not to endure unnecessarily drawn-out encounters. Simply making something “harder” doesn’t make it better—it has to be engaging and rewarding.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

So if you as a person does not factor in to the argument, why did you bring up your gaming hours in other games as an appeal to authority that you are indeed a gaming expert and know what you're talking about?

Bringing up experience in other games provides context, not an appeal to authority. My hours in PoE1 and other challenging games demonstrate a deep understanding of the systems being discussed. That said, the validity of an argument doesn’t hinge on personal credentials—it stands or falls on its merits. Resorting to personal attacks instead of engaging with the points raised is yet another deflection.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

Quit dodging the question. Give a SPECIFIC example. How do you prepare for Searing Exarch that is so very different from preparing against Arbiter of Ash right now?

I won’t entertain more of this pretense that examples haven’t been given. If you choose to ignore them or twist their context to fit your argument, that’s on you—not on the points already made. Let’s move on to discussing actual systems rather than getting stuck in bad-faith deflections.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

So you just admitted in a roundabout way that you indeed would prefer that all bosses are 1 second loot pinatas that you can just skip with your build.

Nowhere did I say or imply this. Wanting preparation and planning to be meaningful doesn’t equate to trivializing encounters. In PoE1, bosses that could be killed quickly were often the result of extensive planning and execution, not a lack of mechanics. You’re building a strawman argument here, twisting my words to make your point instead of addressing the actual critique.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

Your core argument in the OP is to argue that the very basis of PoE 2 is flawed which is simply untrue.

The argument isn’t that the “basis” of PoE2 is flawed—it’s that the implementation of its systems undermines the franchise’s core strengths. Pacing, depth, and meaningful challenge are critical elements of what made PoE1 great, and PoE2 risks losing that by focusing on slower, more restrictive systems. Constructive criticism isn’t about dismissing the entire game—it’s about identifying areas where it can be improved to better serve both new and veteran players.


Your repeated use of personal attacks, misrepresentations, and strawman arguments only serves to weaken your position. If you want to engage in meaningful discussion, address the points directly instead of resorting to deflection and exaggeration. PoE2 has potential, but it needs to respect what made the franchise successful while refining its systems to provide a rewarding experience for all players. Ignoring valid criticism and dismissing feedback won’t help the game—it’ll only alienate the community it’s built on.

The OP was a thoughtful and reasonable approach toward providing some constructive criticism and insight for the developer. Good job.

I'll also add that for many of these newer players coming in and saying to older players that they should just accept the idea of abandoning the roots of PoE for the new hotness shows a lack of both perspective and shows a level of flippancy that is unhealthy for something many are hoping will be a "generational" game.

The reason PoE1 has lasted as long as it has (and still has people playing it) is because the core players of the game kept coming back season after season and (most of the time) offered an engaging or interesting experience that people were willing to throw money behind via the support packs. In fact, most of what PoE2 is built off of is PoE1 League mechanics with a fresh coat of paint. So whoever it was above that said PoE1 was unengaging etc. should take that in consideration.

This game is presented as a continuation of PoE1, not an evolution of the beast but the maturation of it. The name says it all, otherwise it may as well have been called something else. Sure it needs to appeal to more people, but if something is fun and meets expectations generally your core players will go out and encourage people to play. It might be a slower growth, but it will certainly be a more sustainable one.

Just one man's perspective though.

Just on steam charts alone:

66,442 positive reviews
14,199 negative reviews

POE2 and the base game as is has overwhelmingly gained a new audience. To deny the numbers is just pure delusional.

GGG will not deviate too far from what they have established in game. No matter how much people gripe on here about it.

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Kaukus1#7461 wrote:

Your comparison is flawed. Nioh’s "longer" boss fights are challenging because they reward precision (And they arene even that long), adaptability, and the proper use of mechanics.
You’re constantly engaged because every moment matters—dodging attacks, timing your strikes, and managing Ki effectively. In PoE2, longer fights often feel tedious because they’re stretched out by bloated health pools, not by engaging mechanics.

Then you haven't played Warrior in PoE 2, I recommmend you try it out. If you use a stun in the wrong place you're dead. You have to keep charging Perfect Strike and release it at a precise time to maximise damage. Its very much all about proper use of the class mechanics, which makes PoE 2 bosses constantly engaging. Seems to me you simply haven't played PoE 2 enough to form a coherent opinion about it yet.

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Take Count Geonor as an example: while it requires some level of precision, much of the fight boils down to enduring his inflated health rather than genuinely dynamic gameplay.

But thats exactly what Nioh is about. You're dodging high damaging boss attacks for a good 5 minutes. When you described Geonor fight that way, you described an average Nioh boss fight.

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This is yet another attempt to discredit the argument by attacking the person. My personal progress in Nioh or Nioh 2 doesn’t invalidate the systems I’m discussing.

Yes they do because you're the one who brought your personal progress in Nioh up. You're the one who made yourself relevant in this discussion, not me.

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This is a misrepresentation of both WoW and my argument. The core issue isn’t about “skipping content” or “milking players”—it’s about designing systems that respect the player’s time and provide engaging experiences. In PoE2, dragging out the campaign doesn’t add value,

And developers giving the players the ability to skip the content doesn't add any value either, yet you're the one suggesting it.

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You’re conflating difficulty with poor implementation. Players struggling with bosses like Sekhema Trial or Jamanra aren’t necessarily finding them “too hard” in the traditional sense—they’re frustrated by mechanics that feel punishing rather than rewarding. True difficulty challenges players to adapt, plan, and execute strategies, not to endure unnecessarily drawn-out encounters. Simply making something “harder” doesn’t make it better—it has to be engaging and rewarding.

Goalpost moving number 5. You previously said they were frustrated because the bosses were tedious, not difficult. I'm starting to get irritated by your constant dishonesty and lying.

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Bringing up experience in other games provides context, not an appeal to authority. My hours in PoE1 and other challenging games demonstrate a deep understanding of the systems being discussed.

And your previous statements about Nioh proved that you have absolutely no deep understanding about the mechanics of Nioh whatsoever, but in your OP you acted like you did. You lied.

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I won’t entertain more of this pretense that examples haven’t been given.

Dodgint the question again. You're running out of arguments and just making noises right now. If you're such an expert of PoE 1 and PoE 2 mechanics, it should be very easy to give a specific example. I gave a very easy example, PoE 1 endgame boss vs PoE 2 endgame boss, how does the preparation differ. Now answer the question and stop giving generic drivel that means absolutely nothing. First tell me how do you prepare for Searing Exarch in PoE 1. Then tell me how do you prepare for Arbiter of Ash in PoE 2. Go. I won't tolerate any non-answers, this is the simplest possible question. Failure to answer proves that you are a liar.

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Nowhere did I say or imply this. Wanting preparation and planning to be meaningful doesn’t equate to trivializing encounters. In PoE1, bosses that could be killed quickly were often the result of extensive planning and execution, not a lack of mechanics.

But you cannot experience the boss mechanics if you skip them by instakilling them. Either you like bosses with intricate mechanics or you like to delete them instantly. There is no inbetween.

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The argument isn’t that the “basis” of PoE2 is flawed—it’s that the implementation of its systems undermines the franchise’s core strengths.

In other words the core of the PoE 2 is flawed. You just said back to me exactly what I said.

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Your repeated use of personal attacks, misrepresentations, and strawman arguments only serves to weaken your position. If you want to engage in meaningful discussion, address the points directly instead of resorting to deflection and exaggeration. PoE2 has potential, but it needs to respect what made the franchise successful while refining its systems to provide a rewarding experience for all players. Ignoring valid criticism and dismissing feedback won’t help the game—it’ll only alienate the community it’s built on.

This is all nonsense word salad, you're desperately trying to have some kind of sophisticated point that we mere mortals don't have. That is absolutely false. You don't have any valid criticism because the moment I ask you to give a simple example you refuse to give them and go back to saying meaningless buzzwords. You're not doing GGG any favors by not giving them any concrete feedback.

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Turddog#8292 wrote:

Just on steam charts alone:

66,442 positive reviews
14,199 negative reviews

POE2 and the base game as is has overwhelmingly gained a new audience. To deny the numbers is just pure delusional.

GGG will not deviate too far from what they have established in game. No matter how much people gripe on here about it.

Seems an interesting statistic to throw around, considering reviews haven't been a great indicator of retention in these models of games. Take both Helldivers II and Destiny as example of that over the last two years. Heck the Helldiver community is ready to swing their reviews of the game from positive to negative en masse at any moment.

Again just one man's opinion.

I never had a 100 in POE1 and never liked nither POE1 or D4 but I do love POE2 and the direction the game has taken with slower gameplay and for me in late game maps its fast enough.

Agree on all these points.

I personally would have liked to see the gem system from Ruthless implemented - that is you get 3 uncut gems to choose a skill of your choice, some as quest rewards and the rest you have to find. Many wouldn't have liked that though.

The gem system won't change too much now. It will get tweaked but not fundamentally changed.

Agreed in general and..

- I don't like the new mapping system. Also forcing you to play lot of maps that you don't want to play. the design is console/lazy based imo.
- I hate only 2 potions. Console based again. Not enough buttons.
- I don't like the campain for most of the reasons we can read above.
- I don't like the crafting system. This is empty.
- I am not a fan of the new gems system at this point.
- I hate trials overall, nothing new, Ultimatum/Sanctum. Choose between different colors of poop. Sorry not my taste. Bring us back Izaro.
- Overall the game is so so slow.

Graphics and sounds are awesome. This is very artistic, and it's the only part that i like in the game for now.

Btw i also have 7515 hours played on Poe1, and i'm not going to do the same in Poe2 for sure.

Ok it's a beta but the direction in my opinion is clear. Hope i'm wrong once again but i already said it 2 months ago and it seems i was right so...

And.. ..Why ppl that absolutly don't know NOThinG about Poe1 and his history talk in this post? I don't want the answer.

We are the past ok. But the past who took you here today..

Not feeling as an Exile anymore, Bye.