Simple solution to the One Death mechanic that is clearly hated by most players

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ubikenobi#7201 wrote:

I like one death per map and multiple retries on pinnacle bosses as it is currently.

Personally, I enjoyed the game more when I was dying and losing maps during early mapping. It forced me to work on my gear and play more strategically. Since my warrior is now over-geared and I rarely die in maps, I am enjoying it far less. Maps are now becoming boring and repetitive.

Okay, so this is the perfect example of them artificially making the game difficult by simply giving you one chance at a map, rather than making the mapping and gearing system more progressive instead of -lack of a better word- lazily throwing one portal-only mechanic.

Seriously the "get good" crowd is so pretentious with this crap. I'm not saying you're doing that but again, I think the issue you're pointing out about being overgeared is an example of the actual issue they don't want to deal with.

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PoE1 offered 6 portal per map, creating a zoom-zoom obnoxious mentality as you could only play glass canons to clean maps without any risks as even occasionnal deaths weren't hindering your mapping progress in any meaningful ways ; leading to a huge imbalance in the value of damage vs defenses, and huge disparities in the value of time spent per currency earned/invested, that was then strongly influencing the market -so most of the Softcore players- even and especially the ones not playing those efficient dps over-meta builds. If you weren't body-brigading your toon through the maps, you were playing the game wrong because you weren't using efficiently your 6 portals.

PoE2 emphasis on building a more balanced character, chosing more carefully the content/tier/modifiers you run, and ask of you more attention while progressing in the bigger maps. It give more intrinsic value to the time you spend on the said map, as you have a more specific knowledge to the specific content you are actually engaging with, with only one try to complete it. Instead of running 3 differents riskless maps that you don't even read, in this game you run one map you actually have read and that you value more.

The only downside of having only one portal per map is that you actually have to read the map modifiers (understanding) and keep them in mind (memory) while running it ; but you can pause the game in counterpart. Yes, you need slightly more of a brain in the gameplay elements of PoE2, which is making the player ability matter a bit more than the character in this game than in the first one (as even people without brains can make a -decent- character by following guides, copying trees and buying advised gear ; but they won't be able to play efficiently because they don't choose and read maps correctly.)

So the one portal makes the Endgame more challenging, more engaging, and more valuable.

You wrote out all this yet failed to provide any actual substance on how one portal is making my play experience or anyone more "challenging, more engaging, and more valuable".

What you actually pointed out is that the game is designed to gate you from progressing because they're avoiding actually making the maps, as you said, "challenging, more engaging, and more valuable". Instead of making maps more difficult, they made maps more difficult by arbitrarily making a mechanic where you only have one shot at it.

A majority of the Maps themselves aren't difficult. What's difficult is the mechanic that happens when you finally find a difficult map and only get one chance at it.

The irony of the one portal defender's argument is you want maps to be easy enough that you only get one chance at them. Instead of making maps difficult enough where you don't get the "glass cannon" builds in poe1 like you're stating.

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scornedfury#4010 wrote:

You wrote out all this yet failed to provide any actual substance on how one portal is making my play experience or anyone more "challenging, more engaging, and more valuable".

It's like....you legitimately can't read. There's an entire paragraph on why. You read that paragraph.....and drew no connected conclusions, and instead made one up that has no connection to what was written.

That is rather impressive mental gymnastics if you are able to read.

Penalties for death are a ridiculously outdated concept and have no place in any game.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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scornedfury#4010 wrote:

You wrote out all this yet failed to provide any actual substance on how one portal is making my play experience or anyone more "challenging, more engaging, and more valuable".

It's like....you legitimately can't read. There's an entire paragraph on why.

Sorry you right, I'll just condense all that down for you

All you did was make broad statements about how giving you only one chance forces you to out-level and out-gear a map until it becomes easy enough for you.

Such challenge. So engaging.....

Also, your ad hominem attacks portray your lack of intelligence than anything I've said so far lmao. Keep it up though it's very entertaining.

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scornedfury#4010 wrote:

Also, your ad hominem attacks portray your lack of intelligence than anything I've said so far lmao. Keep it up though it's very entertaining.

just...lol. Your post deserved it. Sometimes there is a very special level of "intelligent" on these forums...

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^this is a WARRIOR PROBLEM. Everyone and their grandmother playing PoE 2 knows warrior itself is one big mess of balance issues. If you can't parse real balance problems with how they might interact with non-problems, creating grief...i can't help you.

And yet I'm sure another warrior player can come in here and explain to you how you are mistaken. I'm sure there are warriors in HC in the 90s, clearing upper tier maps or even all content.

Remember those older arpgs that gave you a difficulty meter for specific classes? Like Warrior was easymode, rogue was medium, mage was difficult, or whatever? Well, you chose expert mode (granted, unintentionally) when you weren't ready for it.

[Removed by Support] Warrior's current situation is irrelevant to the problem of the one-attempt map. One-attempt just promotes safe gameplay and easy no effort builds that can clear faster than me with half the gear power. One-attempt restricts build diversity. One-attempt creates negative feedback loops. One-attempt runs counter to the intended design philosophy behind softcore leagues. One-attempt is frustratingly demoralizing and demotivating and makes players rage quit. One-attempt--especially in how much different mapping feels to campaign, especially with its current limited EA content--is a massive punch in the mouth and kick in the gut after falling to the ground to any new or less experienced player, and especially the more casual player just wanting a fun ARPG. It is one thing to design a game to require high player skill like a Souls game, where the worst you lose is time and some experience points. It is entirely another to have ridiculously punitive punishments, especially in light of the multitude of factors that cannot in any reliable way be prevented or avoided by player skill or knowledge. This isn't a Souls-like, it is an ARPG first and foremost. And above all, this is a video game. People play it for fun. Punitive one-attempt is not fun. Period. Fuck the "vision" if it means the game isn't fun. Any game dev worth their salt should know that.

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^this is a WARRIOR PROBLEM. Everyone and their grandmother playing PoE 2 knows warrior itself is one big mess of balance issues. If you can't parse real balance problems with how they might interact with non-problems, creating grief...i can't help you.

And yet I'm sure another warrior player can come in here and explain to you how you are mistaken. I'm sure there are warriors in HC in the 90s, clearing upper tier maps or even all content.

Remember those older arpgs that gave you a difficulty meter for specific classes? Like Warrior was easymode, rogue was medium, mage was difficult, or whatever? Well, you chose expert mode (granted, unintentionally) when you weren't ready for it.

[Removed by Support] Warrior's current situation is irrelevant to the problem of the one-attempt map. One-attempt just promotes safe gameplay and easy no effort builds that can clear faster than me with half the gear power. One-attempt restricts build diversity. One-attempt creates negative feedback loops. One-attempt runs counter to the intended design philosophy behind softcore leagues. One-attempt is frustratingly demoralizing and demotivating and makes players rage quit. One-attempt--especially in how much different mapping feels to campaign, especially with its current limited EA content--is a massive punch in the mouth and kick in the gut after falling to the ground to any new or less experienced player, and especially the more casual player just wanting a fun ARPG. It is one thing to design a game to require high player skill like a Souls game, where the worst you lose is time and some experience points. It is entirely another to have ridiculously punitive punishments, especially in light of the multitude of factors that cannot in any reliable way be prevented or avoided by player skill or knowledge. This isn't a Souls-like, it is an ARPG first and foremost. And above all, this is a video game. People play it for fun. Punitive one-attempt is not fun. Period. Fuck the "vision" if it means the game isn't fun. Any game dev worth their salt should know that.

+

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

[Removed by Support] Warrior's current situation is irrelevant to the problem of the one-attempt map. One-attempt just promotes safe gameplay and easy no effort builds that can clear faster than me with half the gear power. One-attempt restricts build diversity. One-attempt creates negative feedback loops. One-attempt runs counter to the intended design philosophy behind softcore leagues. One-attempt is frustratingly demoralizing and demotivating and makes players rage quit. One-attempt--especially in how much different mapping feels to campaign, especially with its current limited EA content--is a massive punch in the mouth and kick in the gut after falling to the ground to any new or less experienced player, and especially the more casual player just wanting a fun ARPG. It is one thing to design a game to require high player skill like a Souls game, where the worst you lose is time and some experience points. It is entirely another to have ridiculously punitive punishments, especially in light of the multitude of factors that cannot in any reliable way be prevented or avoided by player skill or knowledge. This isn't a Souls-like, it is an ARPG first and foremost. And above all, this is a video game. People play it for fun. Punitive one-attempt is not fun. Period. Fuck the "vision" if it means the game isn't fun. Any game dev worth their salt should know that.

Ok fine, I'll bite because the vast majority of this post proves exactly what I wrote.

1) Restricts build diversity: sure? If by "restrict diversity" means you actually need to pay attention to defenses (which is literally the goal). As for why Warrior-only problems are relevant: once the balance pass is done and warrior is buffed, they will likely require less defensive investment rendering your whole point irrelevant. It has literally happened before in D3, D4, PoE 1, and other arpgs over and over again: balance of an underperforming class is all that's needed, not some grand re-design of a core concept of the entire game. The build diversity restriction you speak of is by design: you cannot get away with being an idiot with your character creation. Sorry. Sometimes in life, you need to think about what you are doing. In fact, its less about restricting builds and more about promoting perfecting your playstyle. Aka....get better at playing the game based on YOUR character's needs.

2) Difference from campaign: campaign is a learning experience, the endgame is NOT. Campaign holds your hand, endgame does NOT. Campaign expects you to fail and do things many many times, and encourages this because you are LEARNING. Endgame is the opposite. This is all on purpose. It is not <insert all adjectives you used>, that is just the mark of a very poor player that can't be bothered to improve. No one ever said the campaign should "set you up" precisely with how the endgame is run. It wasn't even this way in games as simple as D3. Nothing in the campaign "set you up" for running greater rifts. Pretty much the entire point of the endgame of PoE 2 is to be different from the campaign.

3) Isn't a souls-like, its an arpg: I don't believe you have any idea what this means. You just saw a bunch of people write or say the same thing and now its a part of your classic argument. Exactly what part of this game is not an arpg? Explain it to me. Do you even know that Dark Souls (not that its remotely relevant to THIS game) is an arpg? It's not even an either/or situation that you set it up to be.

4) Worst you lose is time and experience (other games), PoE is too punitive: That's literally....all you lose in PoE as well. With the exception of the Arbiter debacle, which devs have already recognized as being a problem and have taken steps already to fix. They will do more.

5) The casual just wanting a fun arpg: if YOU AREN'T HAVING FUN....stop playing!!! There are countless other games for you. Meanwhile, the hundreds of thousands of other people actually HAVING FUN with the game as it is will continue to do so. Your concept of fun is your own, and the control you have over it is 1) play the game or 2) don't play the game. Not criticizing others for liking a game you don't.

6) F the Vision if it means the game isn't fun: see #5. For many, more than the maximum players who have played PoE 1, the "vision" of PoE 2 is BETTER than PoE 1 and they love it. You do not, clearly. Go play something else. Stop writing off everyone else's feelings that the game and vision is fantastic just because you personally don't like it and can't even clearly articulate why other than "its not fun" (for you).

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Ok fine, I'll bite because the vast majority of this post proves exactly what I wrote.

1) Restricts build diversity: sure? If by "restrict diversity" means you actually need to pay attention to defenses (which is literally the goal). As for why Warrior-only problems are relevant: once the balance pass is done and warrior is buffed, they will likely require less defensive investment rendering your whole point irrelevant. It has literally happened before in D3, D4, PoE 1, and other arpgs over and over again: balance of an underperforming class is all that's needed, not some grand re-design of a core concept of the entire game. The build diversity restriction you speak of is by design: you cannot get away with being an idiot with your character creation. Sorry. Sometimes in life, you need to think about what you are doing. In fact, its less about restricting builds and more about promoting perfecting your playstyle. Aka....get better at playing the game based on YOUR character's needs.

Warrior's current state is irrelevant to whether a death mechanic is good or bad. This was my launch character, so your unnecessary non sequitur and ad hominems can be ignored. Nothing about the balance state of any class or any defense mechanic has anything at all to do with this topic. After all, just because someone might play an easy mode meta build doesn't mean they automatically play it well, either, and might die more often than I do (which genuinely isn't that often). Death penalties are death penalties are death penalties.

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2) Difference from campaign: campaign is a learning experience, the endgame is NOT. Campaign holds your hand, endgame does NOT. Campaign expects you to fail and do things many many times, and encourages this because you are LEARNING. Endgame is the opposite. This is all on purpose. It is not <insert all adjectives you used>, that is just the mark of a very poor player that can't be bothered to improve. No one ever said the campaign should "set you up" precisely with how the endgame is run. It wasn't even this way in games as simple as D3. Nothing in the campaign "set you up" for running greater rifts. Pretty much the entire point of the endgame of PoE 2 is to be different from the campaign.

Literally nothing about the campaign "holds your hand" and how maps are played and approached versus campaign is genuinely different and differently balanced due to the nature of waystones. However, end game versus campaign differences also are irrelevant, because the one-attempt feature also applies to campaign because the map resets, meaning you lose any drops and have mobs respawned. It is bad in campaign, it is bad in maps. The only thing they should be doing is resetting mob health, namely bosses.

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3) Isn't a souls-like, its an arpg: I don't believe you have any idea what this means. You just saw a bunch of people write or say the same thing and now its a part of your classic argument. Exactly what part of this game is not an arpg? Explain it to me. Do you even know that Dark Souls (not that its remotely relevant to THIS game) is an arpg? It's not even an either/or situation that you set it up to be.

More ad hominem attacking nothing relevant. I'll be nice and point out that all I was doing was differentiating that this game is not a souls-like at its core design, rather its core design is ARPG (isometric looter, specifically) where gear matters first and foremost. You can't beat the campaign perfectly avoiding all hits from all mobs and reliably kill any mobs outside of act 1 while wearing white starter gear in this style ARPG. I refuse to believe you were unable to figure out this difference given how you speak to people, I'm convinced this was a troll response. You would do well to consider respecting this is an honest attempt at discussion and you can readily be ignored.

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4) Worst you lose is time and experience (other games), PoE is too punitive: That's literally....all you lose in PoE as well. With the exception of the Arbiter debacle, which devs have already recognized as being a problem and have taken steps already to fix. They will do more.

You lose waystone, you lose mechanics, you lose anything that dropped on the floor. That is far more than just exp loss. This happens in campaign, too, another reason this should change. It shouldn't just be pinnacle bosses. I'll also remind you that one-attempt maps creates a serious risk of negative feedback loop, where if you're getting unlucky on map sustain this just kills it even more. I've had weird valleys where I can't get a single waystone above tier like 6 and I'm running T15.

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5) The casual just wanting a fun arpg: if YOU AREN'T HAVING FUN....stop playing!!! There are countless other games for you. Meanwhile, the hundreds of thousands of other people actually HAVING FUN with the game as it is will continue to do so. Your concept of fun is your own, and the control you have over it is 1) play the game or 2) don't play the game. Not criticizing others for liking a game you don't.

I'd ask at what point I ever criticized anyone for their video game preferences, but it's as relevant as this entire response is to the topic at hand. The reason people make recommendations for how to change a game in a feedback and suggestions forum is because they think such changes would make the game more enjoyable; a game they already enjoy. I, and many others, clearly like a LOT about this game, but this one thing, this ONE thing, is a huge detriment.

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6) F the Vision if it means the game isn't fun: see #5. For many, more than the maximum players who have played PoE 1, the "vision" of PoE 2 is BETTER than PoE 1 and they love it. You do not, clearly. Go play something else. Stop writing off everyone else's feelings that the game and vision is fantastic just because you personally don't like it and can't even clearly articulate why other than "its not fun" (for you).

Seems to me the only person writing off others' feelings is you. Did you have an actual point to make in favor of PoE2's punitive death mechanic? Because this entire response may as well been the wind for all it did to touch on the topic of the thread.

I've made clear and concise cons about this system and nothing in your response addressed any of them. I genuinely cannot think of any pros that exp loss wouldn't already cover, either. Either participate honestly in this discussion or be ignored.