Popular Opinion: In 3.28 League Challenges Should Require Solo Completion

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Rextec#4521 wrote:

exactly, hopefully ggg sees through the smooth brains on this forum

I just pointed out that your particular argument has been made multiple times, and has been debunked just as many times. Too bad the irony in your post is lost on you, or you could laugh with us. :-)

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Bigwilleh#1842 wrote:

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Appreciate you bumping the thread and increasing visibility. Your argument has been debunked a hundred times throughout the thread. :-)

Your opinion, not everyone's.

I remain entirely unconvinced this entire thread isn't a case of a loud few demanding imposition of unnecessary rules on everyone based on their own inability to accept that some people play the game a different way than they do.

Of course it's my opinion. I said that. As did other people. Glad you're understanding how this forum works.

Advocating for good change is something I'll do holding a majority or minority position. That's called having principles.

For the record: the thread may have started off asking for challenges to only be completable by yourself, but has since shifted to a productive conversation about challenge difficulty and how to make them interesting. You have been a part of that conversation so I am confused why you misunderstand that part.

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Bigwilleh#1842 wrote:

I remain entirely unconvinced this entire thread isn't a case of a loud few demanding imposition of unnecessary rules on everyone based on their own inability to accept that some people play the game a different way than they do.

Its exactly that. Carries are a part of this game's trade economy, always have been always will be. SSF was created specifically for people who want to enjoy the game solo and dislike trade.

Who cares if some people decide to save up divines and pay someone for a boss/random RNG challenge lmao

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Its exactly that. Carries are a part of this game's trade economy, always have been always will be. SSF was created specifically for people who want to enjoy the game solo and dislike trade.

Who cares if some people decide to save up divines and pay someone for a boss/random RNG challenge lmao

Carries are a part of the trade economy as long as there is an incentive to having the job done that way. If it is no longer possible to be carried (i.e. because GGG changes how completion is attributed to players), carries will no longer be available. Your logic is circular.

SSF was created because people wanted a more personal experience, where progression depended entirely on your own drops and crafting - not the economy. As has been explained to you multiple times by now and again just before you replied to Bigwilleh, the ask to make challenges more interesting is independent of what game mode a player chooses to play.

At this point, you have to willfully ignore and shut out all new information to still misrepresent the argument you try to argue against. An all too familiar pattern you are falling back into.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Carries are a part of this game's trade economy, always have been always will be.

Carries being labeled “part of the economy” doesn’t really say anything about good design or balance, it just shows that players will exploit whatever they’re allowed to.
We’ve seen this exact pattern with RMT for years.

It’s not intended, it’s not allowed, and it’s actively against the rules, yet it still exists anywhere there’s something to abuse. Its presence never meant it was healthy or designed, only that people found a way.

Carries and challenge selling work the same way. They aren’t some organic or intentional market, they’re the byproduct of players finding holes and monetizing them. Their existence doesn’t validate them as systems, it just highlights where the gaps are. If those gaps were actually closed and the cheese removed, the situation would look very different, and the real trade economy wouldn’t magically fall apart because of it.

And since you’ve already admitted multiple times that you mostly just buy your challenges and skip the process entirely, it’s hard to take the claim that challenges are “in a good spot” all that seriously. You’re not really engaging with them in a meaningful way, so you’re also not in a great position to notice how flat and uninspired they’ve become when someone else is doing the heavy lifting.

If the cheese were removed and the challenge system itself were overhauled into something more engaging, it wouldn’t really change anything for you anyway. You already opt out of the experience.
All it would do is actually address the players who do engage with challenges, and based on what we’re seeing here, those players are pretty clearly asking for something that’s more fun and less of a checkbox simulator.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

SSF was created specifically for people who want to enjoy the game solo and dislike trade

No, you’re misunderstanding why SSF exists in the first place.
Players were already playing SSF inside trade leagues long before the mode was officially added, and well before you even started playing.

The mode didn’t create the playstyle, it simply acknowledged that it already existed and provided a fair ladder for those who chose to play SSF.
This allowed self-sufficient players to compare themselves with others on equal footing, without being overshadowed by party play dominating every role in a trade league.

As a side note, SSF also made race events a fair experience for everyone. By removing the possibility of party play or outsourcing, it ensured that competition was meaningful and based on skill rather than who could leverage outside help the most.

Being real, SSF probably deserves its own balance considerations, but that’s a whole other discussion. This topic isn’t about which game mode players should pick to experience the game, it’s about how the challenge system could be reworked into something more engaging and rewarding regardless of the mode you pick.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

And since you’ve already admitted multiple times that you mostly just buy your challenges and skip the process entirely, it’s hard to take the claim that challenges are “in a good spot” all that seriously.

I literally did 38/40 myself and bought carries for t17s and uber bosses because it would be too cringe to run that content myself lmao, so yes I do them myself.

Challenges have been fine for years, are fine now and are only getting better and easier, which is the correct direction. They are simply a marketing tool to advertise the league and attract players, this is how any f2p game does it. Offer free stuff that usually costs real money(mtx) and players will flock to it. It works, its gotten me and many other players to return every league and now its an expectation to easily get your free mtx each league. The challenges have only been getting simpler and more loose with their requirements every subsequent league. Even the Endgame Grinds one was super easy and low-effort in 3.27 which I loved.

Its a win-win, more players and money for GGG and the players are happy too, so no reason for it to change.

Ruthless has its own set, a super-special red badge for it and a different totem. Past that the only thing I can see them doing is giving different totems to SSF and HC, and maybe recolors of the mtx rewards like the armor sets because those would be easy to make. Only recolors, no special MTX because then a large portion of the playerbase would complain because of FOMO, and understandably so. Or you know, they'd find shady ways to still get carries for those challenges even in SSF, which GGG does not want since it would be a nightmare of support tickets with compromised account cases.

Making the base challenges "harder" would only lose them players and money for no reason, its just not happening. The majority of players enjoy easier challenges, because if they didn't then nobody would be buying carries and that part of the economy wouldn't be so profitable. Most people are fine with them staying as they are, or becoming easier lol


And buying carries isn't an exploit, its a player-emergent behavior and economy. Someone has a strong enough build to do some content, I farm currency and pay them to do it for me. I get what I want, and the player gets free profits. Win-Win. It happens in so many RPGs and MMOs. Its normal, and GGG have let it exist for years along with party play, and even gave party players a quant bonus. If they weren't ok with it, carries would not exist at all for a long time now. Let's not forget that they said "Kill the boss to unlock the bloodline ascendancy, or ask a friend for help." in the reveal livestream for 3.27.

Carries are a normal part of this game, and if someone chooses to play it like that it does not affect you. They ain't going nowhere, and I can't wait to do my easy checklist of challenges and buy voidstone carries the moment I complete my t16 maps for the first time and have killed quest exarch and eater in 3.28.(and in Phrecia kek) That's just how some players have fun in this game, and its completely valid. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to play games. There's only your way. And every person has their own way of having fun.

Same reason some people level boss carry builds and do voidstone carries/uber boss carries for like 1-2 weeks at leaguestart and then are swimming in divines.

I mean have you seen the amount of voidstone carries being spammed in trade 820 and global 820 all day at leaguestart and even into week 1-2? Its a huge part of the in-game economy. Not to mention the countless 5-way legion exp leech groups. They enjoy that, that's a really cool thing. No reason to detract something like that from the game. And I will happily give them my currency so I can reach the content I want faster. SC Trade is just the easy-mode sandbox gamemode, if you want the game to be hard we have like 4 other ones already to choose from.

After reading that post I am not sure if we even agree on what words mean. What do you think people mean when they say "challenges exist regardless of what mode you choose to play" yet you keep arguing against something that is never said. It's the most blatant strawman argument I have seen on this forum and you keep making it for the past 10 pages or so, repeating it over and over and over again.

The ask here is to make them better. That doesn't have to mean that they become more difficult, so I don't know what you mean when you bring up that challenges have become simpler over the years.

Please stop this farce of misrepresenting the argument we're making and save everyone the time and energy to dissect this strawman on every page of the thread. Thank you.

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Please stop this farce of misrepresenting the argument we're making and save everyone the time and energy to dissect this strawman on every page of the thread.

I don't know what strawman even means. And if this thread really isn't talking about removing carries, then why is the title still clickbait lol

There is no reason to make challenges more annoying to do, in any way for any reason. There are already ways to make them harder in the game, so this problem just doesn't even exist. Let people enjoy their easy checklist. Its a niche thing anyway, some players completely ignore challenges. That's like saying everyone should be forced to play HC or SSF, that is not a fun idea. The whole point of the game is you get to decide how you wanna play, player agency is the #1 priority. Making players do something in a certain way goes against that.

They can make a whole seperate set of challenges that gives you an extra-glowy totem and recolored mtx and a golden badge for all I care, just don't touch the original ones, they are almost perfect the way they are, the only thing that needs to go is ubers and t17s, those do not belong in challenges.

The world is an oyster. Google is your friend. Learn something new every day, Toffy.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Challenges have been fine for years

No, Toforto. Challenges are not in a good spot in their current state. I once again have to remind you that you would not know this for certain, as you do not meaningfully engage with the content yourself. There is no reason to keep telling others that challenges are fine or that there is no justification for making them more enjoyable and engaging, especially when this topic alone has already provided multiple strong arguments for why improvements are needed for the broader audience that actually participates in challenges.

You continue to bring up different game modes, but this does nothing to change the reality of the current challenge design. If you do not know for sure what you are talking about, it would be better to avoid deliberately expanding on the topic just for the sake of it or attempting to gaslight others into thinking they are wrong.

The situation here is very straightforward, and players who actively engage with the content are asking for improvements and changes, while you attempt to cut off that feedback despite lacking firsthand experience or a clear understanding of the issues being discussed.

Given that you buy the tutorial voidstone fights, you are not in a good position to tell others that the current challenges are in a good spot. For those who actually complete them themselves, they clearly are not, as shown by this topic and the number of players openly expressing their desire for changes and improvements.

Complete the challenges yourself next league, or play a full league in SSF, and then return with firsthand experience to back up your claims. Until you have actually engaged with the content you are commenting on, you are not in a position to dismiss feedback from players who complete these challenges every league and are directly affected by their design. If you want to participate meaningfully in this discussion, start by gaining the experience required to make your input relevant.
Until then, stop deliberately detailing the topic purely for the sake of it and telling others to switch game modes, as this has already been pointed out multiple times as not being a solution to the problems being raised.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

I once again have to remind you that you would not know this for certain, as you do not meaningfully engage with the content yourself.

Oh but I do 99% of them myself, and I think they're perfect. I love doing an easy checklist for free mtx every league. Its a routine for me every league now, its what keeps me coming back. It is like 90% of the reason I keep playing this game, the guaranteed free stuff from participating in a league. That is the major alluring factor for me to play this game. So yes, I do participate in the content and I enjoy it very much in its current state. What I don't enjoy, is having to waste 5-10 divs every league for carries for T17s and uber bosses when those should be optional content.

And it works, its worked ever since I started doing them in Essence league. And they're only getting easier and more streamlined, we juuuust need t17s and uber bosses to be completely cut from challenges and they will be actual perfection. Now that would be a meaningful,positive change to the challenge system that would make it more accessible to more players. If more people can earn free mtx, the game will be more popular.