Popular Opinion: In 3.28 League Challenges Should Require Solo Completion

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

They literally did say it during a Q&A when asked about steam player numbers lmao

And as I already stated, I would LOVE to see that video wherever it is.

Meanwhile...I have a video featuring Jonathan saying the opposite. About steam player numbers no less.

As the famous proverb goes: pics or it didn't happen, Toforto.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

They literally did say it during a Q&A when asked about steam player numbers lmao

And as I already stated, I would LOVE to see that video wherever it is.

Meanwhile...I have a video featuring Jonathan saying the opposite. About steam player numbers no less.

I'm not gonna go looking for some ancient stream vod. It was either the newest PoE 2 reveal or the 3.27 one. One of them had a Q&A section where that question was asked, and their answer was that their priority was that people keep coming back league after league. It may not even be on twitch anymore since they all get deleted after like a month or something lol

Oh, ancient you say. Well, the video cow posted is 1 month old. Overruled.

Yet....there's Jonathan. December 2025. Took me 5 minutes to find.

The goal is not steep peak and low valley, but a higher and longer valley.

I wonder which statement is more accurate?

"

ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Oh, ancient you say. Well, the video cow posted is 1 month old. Overruled.

Why does it matter if I can find the video where they said it, I watched it live and know it happened lul

I'll never understand this constant need for evidence.

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

Why does it matter if I can find the video where they said it, I watched it live and know it happened lul

I'll never understand this constant need for evidence.

Because there is no reason for anyone to believe what you say without evidence. And because historically, you make dubious claims fairly regularly.

It's clear that you don't understand the need. And it doesn't do you favors that you haven't...changed your approach.

Meanwhile....I have LITERAL VIDEO of the exact opposite of what you claim to remember and saw live.



Now....I'm not saying that one of GGG's goals isn't attracting as many people to league start as possible. I'm saying that ISN'T their main goal, and they never would have stated that was their main goal.

Because if that were true, PoE 2 would have been released years ago. We wouldn't see endgame advancements far more regularly than campaign updates. We wouldn't see expansions at all. We wouldn't really even see skill balancing.

All of these designs run counter to the philosophy that they are only interested in league to league retention.

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

"

ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Oh, ancient you say. Well, the video cow posted is 1 month old. Overruled.

Why does it matter if I can find the video where they said it, I watched it live and know it happened lul

I'll never understand this constant need for evidence.

Livestream memories are super easy to mix up. Happened to me before. That's why having evidence on hand is so important. No one is saying you are lying, but you seem to misremember. Even if you are 100% sure, nobody can verify what you remember unless you post a clip or timestamp.

We are trying to keep the discussion grounded and cowmoo has done his part by providing actual evidence for what he's saying. And what's in that clip is the exact opposite of what you are claiming, and more recent on top. There appears to be a contradiction here that you can solve yourself by posting the clip of the Q&A.

But thank you for admitting so much as that you don't care about evidence. You're here just to make assertions without backing them up. We'll proceed to make the case to the reading audience who won't leave convinced of anything you say past that ridiculous admission.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

"

Snooke#4557 wrote:

To me it sounds like he indirectly implies that PoE1 has fine retention as he is comparing it to PoE2.

no....it merely implies that PoE 1 has "better retention". And that it is the map by which they want retention to start to head towards.

There is truth in the financial data that supports GGG wanting to attract as many players at the start of a league as possible. THAT is what has been discussed.

But "retention" is different.

Retention is retention, you can not define as you wish. In this case we are discussing retention of players league-to-league OR retention of players during a league. There are no quotation marks to try and complicate it.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

The whole temporary league design is the financial decision that favors hooking players early. But the actual design of the game itself, including challenges, is a retention metric for once players begin playing the game. And these systems work in tandem with each other, and complement each other.

Again you overcomplicating it and trying to state there is only one metric while there are plenty of different retention metrics. While we might agree on which one should be important we are not agreeing on which one we think is important for GGG.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

The fact that GGG HASN'T stated what Toffy claims...is precisely why he is wrong here.

No, we are speculating, so no one is right. He is wrong for spreading misinformation if that is the case.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

"Out of a financial stand point the league retention does not make sense, sadly, over the league-to-league retention as it is the initial hype and reception of the league mechanic that produces sales."

This is only part of the picture. The other part is the far greater population, unlike Toffy, that will only come back if they find the game itself fun. And the best metric for a fun game is retention over time. In that video above, Jonathan states as much....which is why they are working fervently to improve PoE 2's endgame.

I would kindly disagree on this.
Necropolis had the worse league retention ever yet Settlers set the peak player record ever.
Why? Because the melee rework and league mechanic created hype.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

"This is why we rarely see any major changes to an existing league after launch as they need to work on the next best thing." This isn't....true. More often than not, leagues get major tweaks and balance passes within the first few weeks, presumably AFTER most have bought in or quit. One need only look at this current league to see that lol.

Tweaks are not major changes and balances can vary in size but looking at their versioning and assuming they are going by the versioning practice of 3.(major)27.(minor).0(patches) they didn't even update the patch versioning but rather added a letter which I assume is minor fixes version for them.

By major changes I mean adding a new currency orb or a new system outside the league. But again, it makes no sense adding such things mid league, even if it would boost player retention mid league as it can be used to create hype in the next league.

Imo, player peak == $$$

Here's another one:
https://youtu.be/QVoR1PxFKF0?t=1317

Granted this is PoE 2, but it can be extrapolated:

It's important for them to make sure that the game is fun to play, and fun to REplay.....because that is what makes people come back league after league.

The game actually needs to be GOOD for a length of time, in order to even get people (especially NEW people) to become repeat customers.

"If we haven't proven that...<replayability>" (aka if people are quitting in droves immediately), then the game is not even ready for full release.

"If people are trusting us / happy": happiness in game-speak = retention over time. For the vast vast majority of players. Players choosing to put many hours in because they like the game.



They don't outright say word for word: we want player retention within the league to be longer.....but the message is clear, especially if you listen beyond the 2 minutes of text I quoted.

For clarity's sake, again, this does NOT mean that league start peak and money making isn't ALSO a goal. It's just not the focus, because it literally CAN'T be the focus.