Popular Opinion: In 3.28 League Challenges Should Require Solo Completion

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

Oh but I do 99% of them myself, and I think they're perfect. I love doing an easy checklist for free mtx every league. Its a routine for me every league now, its what keeps me coming back. It is like 90% of the reason I keep playing this game, the guaranteed free stuff from participating in a league. That is the major alluring factor for me to play this game.

So what you are saying is....they are in a TERRIBLE spot, because even you, who lives and breathes for them, only spends a single week every league to complete them and then you quit and peace out.

For someone who absolutely loves them the way they are....it isn't even an effective tool for retention.

In fact, it is actively hindering GGG's profit bottom line because its too easy to get free mtx, and too quick and easy to keep people playing for purchases.


And the fact that they continue to get easier and easier (and faster), as per your description, only compounds these issues further.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

So what you are saying is....they are in a TERRIBLE spot, because even you, who lives and breathes for them, only spends a single week every league to complete them and then you quit and peace out.

For someone who absolutely loves them the way they are....it isn't even an effective tool for retention.

GGG have said themselves their metric for player retention is if people keep coming back every patch, not for how long they play.

The challenges keep me coming back every single time. Thus they work perfectly atm.

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

GGG have said themselves their metric for player retention is if people keep coming back every patch, not for how long they play.

Ooh I would LOVE to see that link or document where they said that.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

GGG have said themselves their metric for player retention is if people keep coming back every patch, not for how long they play.

Ooh I would LOVE to see that link or document where they said that.

It was in the Q&A of one of the livestream reveals. Either for PoE 1 or PoE 2, don't remember. The twitch vods are probably still there. That or it was an interview, but pretty sure it was an official livestream thing.

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

It was in the Q&A of one of the livestream reveals. Either for PoE 1 or PoE 2, don't remember. The twitch vods are probably still there. That or it was an interview, but pretty sure it was an official livestream thing.

I can say with near 99.999% certainty that....you either misheard, misrepresented, or misunderstood what was said. With the vague info you provided, maybe I'll hunt it down just to show you.

Considering like....everything GGG has ever done, programmed, or said runs counter to this statement.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

And the fact that they continue to get easier and easier (and faster), as per your description, only compounds these issues further.

He may not realize that, even from his perspective without first-hand experience, his statement effectively reveal the flaws in the current system. The existing challenges do little to support player retention and are not particularly engaging, issues we identified long ago, which clearly show why it is time for GGG to improve the challenge system.

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

The challenges keep me coming back every single time. Thus they work perfectly atm.

From the developer’s perspective, Toforto coming back is good, but metrics, retention and company interest are about the bigger picture, not just a single user.
Developers do not balance or design their game around a single player or the minority. They focus on what benefits the majority and produces the best results in retention, engagement, and revenue.

If a change made Toforto stop returning while ten other players came back more often, spent more time in the league, and half of them even invested money, that is what metrics and retention are truly measuring.

hey....didn't take very long to find at least one complete opposite take from the head developer (and its recent too, December 2025).

https://youtu.be/0gTWLcHhRW0?t=401

The high peak, lower valleys of PoE 2 (aka low retention) is a PROBLEM that they are working to solve. Because they want folks to play longer.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

hey....didn't take very long to find at least one complete opposite take from the head developer (and its recent too, December 2025).

https://youtu.be/0gTWLcHhRW0?t=401

The high peak, lower valleys of PoE 2 (aka low retention) is a PROBLEM that they are working to solve. Because they want folks to play longer.

To me it sounds like he indirectly implies that PoE1 has fine retention as he is comparing it to PoE2.

While I disagree with Toforto on all points (Should have to do multiple T17s, it is a challenge after all) he is somewhat correct with the retention metric. I have never heared them say that league-to-league is their retention metric but it has been discussed on several occasions on different forums and the conclusion is always the same.
Out of a financial stand point the league retention does not make sense, sadly, over the league-to-league retention as it is the initial hype and reception of the league mechanic that produces sales.
This is why we rarely see any major changes to an existing league after launch as they need to work on the next best thing.

There is no way to say if making challenges harder would make retention grow but they should definitly not make it easier. Might as well call it participation reward at that point.

In my opinion the top-tier Challenge rewards should be as hard to get as the top-rier race rewards were back in the days.

"

Snooke#4557 wrote:

To me it sounds like he indirectly implies that PoE1 has fine retention as he is comparing it to PoE2.

no....it merely implies that PoE 1 has "better retention". And that it is the map by which they want retention to start to head towards.

There is truth in the financial data that supports GGG wanting to attract as many players at the start of a league as possible. THAT is what has been discussed.

But "retention" is different.

The whole temporary league design is the financial decision that favors hooking players early. But the actual design of the game itself, including challenges, is a retention metric for once players begin playing the game. And these systems work in tandem with each other, and complement each other.

The fact that GGG HASN'T stated what Toffy claims...is precisely why he is wrong here.

"Out of a financial stand point the league retention does not make sense, sadly, over the league-to-league retention as it is the initial hype and reception of the league mechanic that produces sales."

This is only part of the picture. The other part is the far greater population, unlike Toffy, that will only come back if they find the game itself fun. And the best metric for a fun game is retention over time. In that video above, Jonathan states as much....which is why they are working fervently to improve PoE 2's endgame.

"This is why we rarely see any major changes to an existing league after launch as they need to work on the next best thing." This isn't....true. More often than not, leagues get major tweaks and balance passes within the first few weeks, presumably AFTER most have bought in or quit. One need only look at this current league to see that lol.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

The fact that GGG HASN'T stated what Toffy claims...is precisely why he is wrong here.

They literally did say it during a Q&A when asked about steam player numbers lmao