Popular Opinion: In 3.28 League Challenges Should Require Solo Completion

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Nah, people do it cus they just wanna blast. This is SC Trade, not HC SSF.

Whether in SSF, Hardcore, or Softcore, the outcome is the same, players who actually want to blast maps obtain their voidstones on the fly simply by blasting maps. Progression happens naturally as a consequence of playing the game at a competent pace.

Players who buy voidstones usually do so because they cannot defeat the encounters themselves. In that case, they have no real business being in Tier 16 maps to begin with. Spending 100 chaos, or any amount of currency, to bypass progression by having others complete content you would otherwise be unable to do is simply sidestepping the problem rather than addressing it.
That currency would be far better invested into gear upgrades that enable genuine progression.

The one part I think we can all agree on, at least to a degree, is that the endgame would benefit from a refresh. Not because the current voidstone fights are bad encounters, but because they have been part of the core progression loop for so long that they have inevitably gone stale. It would hardly be unreasonable to replace them with a new endgame loop centered on natural progression, ideally one that cannot be skipped, cheesed, or outsourced to carries.

The existing fights could still coexist as optional side content, while the main progression path stops pretending that borrowed clears are equivalent to earned progression.
That, at least, is worth a discussion in another topic.

With destructive play and boss map nodes being on the atlas there is no excuse for thinking getting a maven writ or u elder key is too hard or long winded. now that you can horizon elder guardians now its even easier.

If you had the requirement to do it solo, people that have never beaten maven/uelder on their own would adapt and overcome. Its human nature, its the reason we made fire and started making shelters and innovated technology.

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Lonnie455Rich#2087 wrote:

With destructive play and boss map nodes being on the atlas there is no excuse for thinking getting a maven writ or u elder key is too hard or long winded. now that you can horizon elder guardians now its even easier

Well it does take too long, that's why people buy their voidstones. Shaper and Elder(and elder guardians) are boring to farm, they have too many immunity phases,add phases and unskippable animations that waste time. Ofc people wanna skip past all that and get to the real game: farming maps with all 4 voidstones socketed. That's a problem with the endgame progression, people aren't buying voidstone carries because they can't do the bosses, its because they can't be bothered to farm them.

That's why those carries are so popular every leaguestart, why TFT and trade and global chat are flooded with "wts maven/uber elder voidstone" every time. And there's nothing wrong with buying carries, people are allowed to play the game and have fun however they want.

Arbitrarily taking a player's fun away and forcing them to play in some specific way is never a good thing. This is SC Trade, the easy mode. You can play however you see fit, that's the whole point. Limiting people's enjoyment and fun of the game is just bad.

And buying a carry isn't bypassing anything, nor is it "cheesing", its just players participating in the player-driven economy. Which is normal. If you want restrictions to gameplay, you have other gamemodes. And if those aren't enough, you can do self-imposed challenges or play in races. But there is no reason to make SC Trade worse and less fun by forcing hardcore/ssf mechanics onto players.

If it takes you "too long" it's because you're "too slow"

Which means you're using a crutch to make up for lacking.

If you don't understand how purchasing a carry is not literally "bypassing" a progression goal, we have to have a serious discussion about literacy.

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

If it takes you "too long" it's because you're "too slow"

You can't expect the average player to be a world-class speedrunning expert at this game. Most people aren't in maps until a few days into a league. I'm too lazy to learn how to speedrun voidstones, and yes it is too slow to farm up an uber elder and maven invite.

And the invitation fragments are expensive, which means you are risking all that potential currency when doing the bosses. Who wants to take that risk when instead you can buy a guaranteed,safe carry, get your voidstone and sell your own fragments afterwards for currency? Its just the better choice that makes sense. I get my voidstones fast with 0 risk, and I get to sell stuff for gear upgrades after that too.

And these carries will be even more popular in Phrecia because of how much more important voidstones will be lol

People buy these carries because its easier,faster and makes more sense to do so.

The average player is able to do this without fault. It's just those who feel FOMO because they feel the need to compete with people beyond their skill level and reach full endgame as quickly as possible to not feel left behind. Coincidentally they skip past an important learning step in the PoE journey, further hindering them in an important lesson, and ultimately never getting better at that aspect of the game.
Most people buying carries are newer at the game. Seasoned veterans and really anyone who takes pride in their ability as a gamer will see this as a cheat.

Talk about robbing yourself of an experience. You're paying to play less game.

Glad to hear though that you have come to terms with the fact that you are absolutely bypassing important progression steps by virtue of omission.

The only part of this game that should require solo completion aside from anything SSF is when you wake up on the beach and have to kill Hillock.

People enjoy completing challenges as a team, why rob those players from that experience? This is a multiplayer game.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Well it does take too long, that's why people buy their voidstones. Shaper and Elder(and elder guardians) are boring to farm, they have too many immunity phases,add phases and unskippable animations that waste time.

No Toffy, you are wrong.

Gathering the required entry items is straightforward, and actually fighting the bosses is quick as well. It only feels time consuming if you struggle to obtain the maps because you cannot handle red maps, if you have difficulty collecting the necessary boss items, or if you struggle with the fights themselves, or if you already have a hard time with the game prior to even reaching red maps, or even as early as the campaign, taking four days to complete the tutorial despite having done it multiple times over the years.

Players only resort to buy a carry when they already have a hard time collecting the entry items and cannot reliably complete the fights on their own. If we are generous and accept the excuse of not wanting to farm the boss entry and resorting to a cheap purchase via the currency exchange, the easiest method to get your hands on the entry if you do not want to run the maps, then even with that shortcut, if you are still unable to fight the boss fights yourself, it is clear you have no business in this level of content, let alone anything beyond it.

In which case you should step back, dial down the difficulty, improve your build, skill, or whatever else is holding you back, and try again.
As the wise Izaro says, “For those who ascend too quickly, the fall is inevitable.”

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

That's why those carries are so popular every leaguestart, why TFT and trade and global chat are flooded with "wts maven/uber elder voidstone" every time. And there's nothing wrong with buying carries, people are allowed to play the game and have fun however they want.

Of course players are free to play as they wish, but if someone chooses a suboptimal approach and refuses to learn, improve, or adapt, then when GGG enhances systems, certain content will naturally be beyond that individual’s reach unless they decide to engage with the game as most players do.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Arbitrarily taking a player's fun away and forcing them to play in some specific way is never a good thing. This is SC Trade, the easy mode. You can play however you see fit, that's the whole point. Limiting people's enjoyment and fun of the game is just bad.

SC is already the easiest mode, and the game is balanced around it. Content is quickly attainable in this mode, and true enjoyment comes from engaging with the game itself, not from bypassing the majority of it only to quit by the second week citing “burnout” or “difficulty,” despite never truly experiencing the vast depth the game has to offer. In this case, the only ones limiting the fun are the players who choose not to engage with the game, thereby missing the enjoyment it could offer if they decided to fully experience it.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

But there is no reason to make SC Trade worse and less fun by forcing hardcore/ssf mechanics onto players.

We shouldn’t mistake SSF for this, and we certainly shouldn’t mistake HC, which is even more different from the matter of this discussion.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

and true enjoyment comes from engaging with the game itself

Nah, everyone has fun in different ways in this game. For me its rushing to the content I enjoy by buying some carries, for others its other stuff. You can't invalidate everyone else's fun, because there is no correct way to play this game.

Carries are here to stay, they're a core part of the economy. And every player is free to either engage with carries or ignore them, or they can just go play SSF.

The argument to pay for boss carries is no different in the logic of people that rmt magebloods on day 2 of the league.

Except mageblood is not reasonable to farm.

Voidstones however, very reasonable to farm with 0 help.