Popular Opinion: In 3.28 League Challenges Should Require Solo Completion

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Lonnie455Rich#2087 wrote:

Voidstones however, very reasonable to farm with 0 help.

Ok but like I don't want to farm voidstones? They take too long. That is the only reason I keep buying them for 100+ chaos every league. If the other 2 took just as long as exarch and eater I'd do those myself, not my fault that there's no proper questline or quest versions of maven and uber elder.

When I play this game I only care about the content I want to do, voidstones are a chore on the way to the real gameplay. So paying someone some chaos orbs is the obvious thing to do. That's why the game is so good, it allows you to do whatever content you want, and you can block whatever content you don't like on the atlas tree.


I don't want to go back to the days of when Sirus was the newest boss, and the atlas had 8 regions and 150+ maps, having to get 4 voidstones per region and then having to do every map again at t16 for awakening objectives lmao, its a good thing that endgame has gotten so streamlined and players have much more choices.

And its an online RPG, getting help from other players is normal, some people probably even ask for help in their guilds if not on global chat. Or they ask a friend for help. Its a part of the game lol, and sharing carries for things other players can't do is also a great feeling too. All the times I've shared challenge/boss carries have been only positive experiences, its really nice.

If people wanna do something on their own, they will go ahead and do it. Its a choice, it should never be forced upon all players.

Why do we still have the campaign then? GGG should just sell level 100 boosts for 20 dollars. Im sure you would be right on that asap.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Nah, everyone has fun in different ways in this game. For me its rushing to the content I enjoy by buying some carries, for others its other stuff. You can't invalidate everyone else's fun, because there is no correct way to play this game.

Well, except we’re all playing a game to play a game, and the game itself implies it’s about grinding. So it’s not about invalidating other people’s fun if they don’t enjoy the game in the same way, but only find amusement in complaining while letting others play for them.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Carries are here to stay, they're a core part of the economy. And every player is free to either engage with carries or ignore them, or they can just go play SSF.

Toffy, that is not correct and this was already addressed several pages ago. Carries are not a core component of the economy and the game is not designed around them. The economy revolves around selling items. That is what the game and its loot systems were balanced for. Carries are an unintended workaround that allow players to bypass meaningful progression. The consequences of this are visible in multiple ways.

The purpose of SSF and its existence remain distinct from this discussion. The mode does not make the topic at hand irrelevant because the two are unrelated. If you are uncertain about a point it is far more productive to review the material rather than repeat assertions. The same points have been addressed and disproven multiple times. Continuing to return to them without evidence or constructive contribution does not advance the discussion.
It only highlights for GGG what needs to be addressed and what has long been overdue.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

Carries are an unintended workaround that allow players to bypass meaningful progression.

If that was true then carries would have been made impossible ages ago. But they weren't. They are absolutely a part of the economy, same as carries in MMOs.

So it looks to me like carries are ok and absolutely intentional in a trade league, that is the whole reason TFT even exists and got so big. A whole community and chat channels formed around this naturally emerging gameplay. Its a core part of this game's trade economy. The proof of that is that it's been in the game for years and hasn't been touched, same for party play.

The biggest thing they have done is nerf exp in legion 5-way rotas lol, and making scrying maps solo because that crossed some kind of line for some reason. But everything else is fair game.


Players have the freedom to interact with the content however they want, either do it themselves,struggle through it on hc/ssf/ruthless or get carried by others. And all those are valid ways to play. There is no 1 "right way to play" this game. There are literally people who sit in hideout all day flipping, that's also valid.


This is an online game, group play will never be removed from it. And it already has a single-player mode called SSF, for people who don't enjoy Trade.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

If that was true then carries would have been made impossible ages ago. But they weren't. They are absolutely a part of the economy, same as carries in MMOs.

So it looks to me like carries are ok and absolutely intentional in a trade league, that is the whole reason TFT even exists and got so big. A whole community and chat channels formed around this naturally emerging gameplay. Its a core part of this game's trade economy. The proof of that is that it's been in the game for years and hasn't been touched, same for party play.

Oh, but we have already witnessed firsthand how GGG, as well as other companies, address these issues. A prime example for GGG would be the five-way nerf, or in this league, the removal of breachstones. It is clear that GGG is gradually taking steps to curb the power of dominant carries, so you are absolutely wrong if you think they take no action and that carries are simply a natural part of the game, because they are not a part of the game.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

This is an online game, group play will never be removed from it. And it already has a single-player mode called SSF, for people who don't enjoy Trade.

You continue to repeat the same points without offering any substantive support or evidence, seemingly attempting to shut down the discussion despite never having had a valid argument. It has been very disruptive and exhausting to keep reminding you that what you bring up has already been addressed by others and proven wrong multiple times. If you are unsure about something, it is far better to gather accurate information rather than spreading claims based on gut feeling. This approach has never been conducive to engaging in meaningful discussions, especially those of particular importance to more invested players. I can only ask once more that you either present properly substantiated and well-supported facts, or, if you disagree with the idea but lack any solid foundation for your opinion, refrain from engaging with the topic rather than trying to forcibly suppress it by continually recycling arguments that have already been thoroughly refuted.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

Oh, but we have already witnessed firsthand how GGG, as well as other companies, address these issues. A prime example for GGG would be the five-way nerf, or in this league, the removal of breachstones.

Yeah breachstones are only gone because keepers league replaced old breach for now lol

If keepers doesn't go core, old breach will have to come back along with the breachstones and exp leech groups will be back again. And I've seen people asking for breachstones to be put in again anyway. And the 5-way rota exp nerf did literally nothing, there are still hundreds of runs going all day every day and people spending insane amounts of divs to get carried to lvl100, because its fun.


This is an online game, that fact will never change. So carries will always be a part of it, because that's just part of most online RPGs. Its emergent gameplay. Same for party play,friends playing together,helping eachother etc.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Yeah breachstones are only gone because keepers league replaced old breach for now lol

If keepers doesn't go core, old breach will have to come back along with the breachstones and exp leech groups will be back again. And I've seen people asking for breachstones to be put in again anyway.

At this point, all of this remains unclear, just as it is still uncertain whether we will see another round of nerfs or the complete removal of five-way encounters altogether. If the intention had been to preserve the old design, it would have been fully implemented in the current league, and there would have been no reason to experiment with alternative approaches. This league alone serves as a strong example that new ideas are actively being tested, in which case account-bound currency once again becomes a significant factor.

The last time GGG meaningfully experimented with account-bound items was during the Sanctum league, and it is increasingly clear that there is a deliberate design philosophy aimed at revisiting and expanding on concepts in this space.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

And the 5-way rota exp nerf did literally nothing, there are still hundreds of runs going all day every day and people spending insane amounts of divs to get carried to lvl100, because its fun.

I am fairly certain your hardware and character progression would tell a very different story, otherwise we would be seeing entirely different results of fun.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

This is an online game, that fact will never change. So carries will always be a part of it, because that's just part of most online RPGs. Its emergent gameplay. Same for party play,friends playing together,helping eachother etc.

Yes, it is an online game, but you are conflating two entirely different points of discussion.
The idea is not to turn the game into a strictly SSF-only environment, even though balancing the game around SSF, with no trading, would effectively blow RMT entirely out of existence and drastically reduce large-scale bot abuse, which would be overwhelmingly healthy for the game. In that sense, a fully SSF-oriented design could represent one of the most positive long-term outcomes for the game’s integrity.

That said, regardless of how beneficial such a direction might be, it is not what is being discussed here. The actual matter at hand concerns minor, targeted adjustments made while party play and trade systems continue to exist. If you are unable to distinguish between these two separate topics, I would strongly recommend revisiting the discussion and the points raised by others so far, as doing so may help clarify what is actually being debated.

Diablo 2 had carries as a huge part of its online economy.

Chris and friends set out to create the spiritual successor to Diablo 2 - at first because they figured the sequel was never comming, and later because the sequel that did come was "like halloween at Disneyland", thus making their own successor with blackjack and "corner workers" (you guys know what the actual quote is there).

I have a sneaking suspicion that the potential for carries is not, and has never been, a point of concern in the game's design intent.

Of course, since you speak so confidently on the point of how the game was intended to be designed, I welcome you to share the primary source from the development team that has informed you of this.

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Bigwilleh#1842 wrote:

Of course, since you speak so confidently on the point of how the game was intended to be designed, I welcome you to share the primary source from the development team that has informed you of this.

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When we started developing Path of Exile in 2006, we identified several key design pillars. These are fundamental philosophies chosen to guide our design decisions throughout development. One of these was that "items matter". Items are a player's reward for playing Path of Exile. They're the primary way of measuring progress in a league. A person with vastly more in-game wealth has often played longer than someone with a higher level character. They also matter because if a player had better items, then they'd be able to build more powerful characters, play harder content, and be viewed as richer and more successful within the game. The acquisition of items is why people play Action RPGs. Chances are, if you're reading this, you understand why it's important that items matter because your Path of Exile items mean a lot to you as well.

@Void: you should also find the numerous times that CW, Jonathan, and other developers have outright stated that they WANT folks to engage with their bosses.....which is why they spend so much time developing them.

And how it is a CORE part of PoE 2's design because they realized that issues have developed in PoE 1 with people missing or skipping bosses. I can't say with 100% certainty, but I do remember Jonathan mentioning that one of, if not THE first thing that developers felt the need to spend a great deal of time on in PoE 2 was the boss fights.

In another thread (I don't think it was this one?), I posted a CW video where he specifically states they take a ton of time and $$$ developing endgame bosses that few see because of how incredibly important it is for the longevity of core players to have goals and obstacles to overcome.


@BigWilleh: arguably, one of the fundamental PROBLEMS of D2 was carries and rushes. Blizzard recognized this and changed the design to not allow this (as easily) in their future games. Or offer alternate ways to play the earlier game so this was far less of a draw. So too did almost every arpg that followed between D2 LOD and PoE 1. And carries and rushes were so popular for D2 in part because the game was designed where it forced you to play...the exact same story....three times with zero endgame. It was just straight up boring design, even worse than people's complaints about having to do the PoE 1 campaign over and over again. Games have evolved A LOT since 2000.

There's also the fact that....you don't fight a boss ONCE in D2, unlike in PoE. The only endgame available is boss runs. Endless Boss Runs. So while you might get that initial carry for completion....if you are continuing to play you are CONSTANTLY engaging with those same bosses you got carried through before. The actual REWARDS even from D2's era came from repeated and self-driven bossing. Not just the "completion carry" box tick. VERY different than PoE.