Phrecia 3.27 patch notes when?

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Bosscannon#3325 wrote:

poe.ninja seems to agree with me and not with you

poe ninja is not a good source of what's good and bad, thanks for proving my point that you're wrong.

Poe.ninja reflects popularity, not power. A skill can be powerful but underplayed because of mechanical complexity, requiring expensive gear, it's misunderstood, it's not showcased by streamers or because it doesn't do well with the current league mechanic.

Just one quick example of the opposite: if you had played during Legion league you could have sworn ED/Contagion was a super powerful build because so many people played it when in actuality people just popped the Legion on Glacier and dipped again.

The data is also heavily skewed in that it comes from only high-level characters from players with public profiles. People are known to chase the meta, so certain skills will be overrepresented with no link to objective build strength. This creates a selection bias which further skews the data one way as people pick what's popular on poe.ninja.

What poe.ninja also doesn't do is measure real gameplay performance. And it lags behind innovation. Many of the strongest builds each league don't are invisible on poe.ninja simply because only a handful of people discover them and never reach the threshold of visibility on the site.

The fact that you cite poe.ninja as an argument for your wild take just shows you don't understand the data you are viewing. Poe.ninja is certainly an amazing data site, but this is not how you should use it.

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Bosscannon#3325 wrote:

Do you want to league start basic contagion and grace the world with a base contagion SSF zero to hero video? No? Then abandon this farce. We all know that contagion is not a dps ability.

Since you seemed to question others on what "moving the goalposts" is.....first mention of league start being the new requirement.

Despite seeing base contagion (a Non-dps ability by your own insistence) KILL a t17 buffed boss.....for whatever reason that doesn't apply to the SAME argument you tried to make about frostbolt, with ANOTHER video showing self-cast frostbolt killing a t17 buffed boss, while not optimized.

Not to mention pretty much, everything you posted past page 8 of this thread has been "Moving the goalposts".

Your 'argument' started with "Cyclone also sucks ass when compared to a real skill, btw" (a laughable statement I ignored because real players were talking), alongside "Talk to me when you ready to speak about self cast frostbolt." Then came contagion, a skill NOT actually designed to be used by itself....yet here you are asking for it anyway.

An already ridiculous place to start, folks took up your premise and SHOWED you exactly what you asked for. But......you decided to change the argument from "self-cast frostbolt" to things like 1) league start 2) budget 3) anything else to discount what your own eyes are seeing.

THIS is goalpost shifting. In a multi-page argument that had STARTED with a goalpost and topic shift.


You have lost whatever argument you were attempting to make back when you personally attacked me (and got away with it). Take the L. This is spiraling into more embarassing territory.

It's getting a bit much now so I just need to take a moment and dissect some of the fallacies Bosscannon is utiliziing to holster poor reasoning on his part:

1) Shifting the goalposts. We have moved from "you cant use Contagion as a DPS skill in endgame" to "Would you league start Contagion in SSF and make a zero-to-hero video?" which is audacious to say the least. Expecting people to put in substantially more effort into "proving you wrong" when you haven't even made a good effort to "prove yourself right" is crazy and Celestriad has done more than enough in that direction.

2) False Dilemma. Your statement implies that you need to either league-start Contagion in SSF or you have to "abandon this farce". This is a classic false dichotomy, because there's many other possibilities you wilfully ignore:
- you can think Contagion is strong in certain contexts but maybe not as a league starter
- you can argue that pickrates don't reflect power without claiming Contagion is top-tier
- you can acknowledge Contagion's role as a utility skill without pretending it's a DPS skill (which was the original argument which you shifted from in pursuit of new goalposts)

3) Strawman argument. You claim "We all know that Contagion is not a DPS ability" but nobody argued that it was. The argument is, and always has been, that certain skills are meant for utility and/or to be combo'd with other skills. You are attacking a position that was never taken. A textbook strawman.

4) Appeal to popularity. This is more implicit in you invoking poe.ninja pickrates and saying "nobody would league start it" or "we all know". Popularity is not have a proof of weakness as I explained in my other post, but I really need to reinforce this because too many people have made this flawed argument already and it needs to be buried somewhere deep.

5) Anecdotal / irrelevant standard. You imposed the question if he would "make a zero-to-hero SSF video" with the skills which, again, is not a meaningful metric for strengtth. It's subjective, requires a lot more effort and time investment than your argument is worth, and it's irrelevant in its entirety to the mechanical discussion. This is like saying a game is bad because no one is speedrunning it.

6) Poisoning the well. Your whole tone with calling his argument farcical is meant to discredit the argument without actually addressing it and frame him as unresonable, when you have yet to make a good argument why we shouldn't consider certain skills as mere utility.

And yes, I know that you claimed Frostbolt must be meant to be a DPS skill because its gem quality increases its DPS and it has decent damage effectiveness. But if that were true, why does the damage only increase after the first target was piercecd? That's clearly not meant to be a single target DPS skill as it deals most of its damage on the targets after the first. Even your own logic doesn't support your argument.

^I just wanted to add one thing:

Things change over time. The fact that frostbolt, your cherrypicked example, existed before its current main usage as a support for ice nova......is irrelevant. The game was VERY different 5 years ago, 10 years ago, TWO years ago. What matters is how it functions NOW.

Contrary to your belief, the dps of frostbolt actually DOES play a role in ice nova or cospri builds if you want it to. It clears trash quite effectively. Maybe on CERTAIN variations, its kept at level 1 and doesn't do that......simply because it isn't needed beyond its support role and those builds are optimized.

A good example of this is....gasp.....cyclone. That terrible terrible skill. A skill that can be used in MANY different ways, despite it being "clearly a dps skill", including as a complete "support" role via CWC or CoCS. It would be downright stupid for someone to focus on pumping dps into cyclone, if their build was CWC or CoCS using other skills as the main dps. But that doesn't devalue cyclone in any way.
Yet, despite all of that.....a pure dps cyclone build can still function and function WELL. Spin-to-win is one of the OLDEST archetypes in this game (and other games) and it is still strong. Even now, the WORST PERFORMING VERSION of cyclone is still capable of double digit millions damage, decent defenses, and (for good measure) sub-mirror investment. Not to mention the utility of having movement and dps baked into one skill.

To use your own popularity argument against you: cyclone has a full 3% usage this league via poe ninja. 2% of tumult. It is squarely in the top 10 of all skills. Yet this was the skill you labeled "trash" earlier in this thread. It even has 2% usage in HCSSF.

"What poe.ninja also doesn't do is measure real gameplay performance. And it lags behind innovation. Many of the strongest builds each league don't are invisible on poe.ninja simply because only a handful of people discover them and never reach the threshold of visibility on the site."
=
"trust me bro, a performing reasonably budgeted crack lance build exists somewhere in the ether"

I don't think I will.

Everyone tried cracklance and everyone tried frostbolt.
None play it no more.
Cause the unspoken consensus reached is they are much weaker than up to date skills.

I think any cracklance pob you cook up will have lower performance than if I would plug a real skill into that same pob. Simply because it is fact that craclance is behind mechanically and numerically.

"An already ridiculous place to start, folks took up your premise and SHOWED you exactly what you asked for. But......you decided to change the argument from "self-cast frostbolt" to things like 1) league start 2) budget 3) anything else to discount what your own eyes are seeing."

If we are to decide if a skill is undeperforming or not then all the additional things I list are relevant and it is dissapointing that you don't get it and instead call it goal post shifting. You want to decide a complex issue in a binary way and I am simply telling you it does not work that way.

"Your 'argument' started with "Cyclone also sucks ass when compared to a real skill, btw" (a laughable statement I ignored because real players were talking), alongside "Talk to me when you ready to speak about self cast frostbolt." Then came contagion, a skill NOT actually designed to be used by itself....yet here you are asking for it anyway."

I speak about frostbolt before you guys bring cyclone or contagion into this.

At least cyclone has a reason to be only 60% of a real dps melee attack skill - it has mechanical advantages so trade off I can understand but at the same time I still dont agree with magnitude of numericall trade off. You could make an argument that cyclone allows for continuing to dps while dodging since it allows you to move while attacking but its debatable how relevant that is and if that is worth it if you deal 66% less dps.

ANYWAY

Frostbolt or cracklance doesnt even have mechanical advantages to discuss when compared to proper skills in the same niche and is significantly worse numerically.

I spend time reading your texts but all you provide is random scattershot that does not refute the above.

"You have lost whatever argument you were attempting to make back when you personally attacked me (and got away with it). Take the L. This is spiraling into more embarassing territory."

You also get personal and get away with it constantly. I would even say you or guys on your side were the first to do it. We have been in the embarassing zone for a while now.

Look at your first post aimed at me on page 6. You come into the conversation and straight of the bat say that my word is worth nothing cause I was wrong (maybe? doesnt matter.) about something before. You also say that other peoples word is worth everything without even needed to produce any proof.

You wish.

1. I can be wrong about some things and right about other things
2. You can be right about some things and wrong about other things
3. Therefore nobody's word is worth anything without proof that can be reliably peer reviewed

Your whole post was one big "we don't respect you" and I recognized it for what it was and disrespected you back. You set the tone for that one.

TL:DR

I'm right about the one argument that I JUST made, that isn't mentioned anywhere else. "Certain builds are not as popular as others".

Well done. That is exactly WHY people who argue in your style continuously move the goalposts. Because inevitably you will get to SOMETHING that you can say....see this is what I meant the whole time! I've always been right.


If we want to talk "respect"....what prompted my first post? Have you forgotten your own contribution?

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Bosscannon#3325 wrote:

step 1: hide characters in account
step 2: claim game is easy

very convincing

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Things change over time. The fact that frostbolt, your cherrypicked example, existed before its current main usage as a support for ice nova......is irrelevant. The game was VERY different 5 years ago, 10 years ago, TWO years ago. What matters is how it functions NOW.

I would accept the above if GGG did not put DPS oriented quality on frostbolt and did not fiddle with its base damage effectiveness. Or will you tell me that they do this for the a singular reason of regulating how well frostbolt clears trash in an ice nova of frostbolts setup? :)))

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The fact that frostbolt, your cherrypicked example

I given other example, you didn't engage with that either. Cause you have no interest in seeking the truth.

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Bosscannon#3325 wrote:

I would accept the above if GGG did not put DPS oriented quality on frostbolt and did not fiddle with its base damage effectiveness.

I given other example, you didn't engage with that either. Cause you have no interest in seeking the truth.

Surely you aren't suggesting the last 7 pages of this thread don't exist now?! Surely not? Is this the new goalpost? "None of this argument ever actually happened".

Why would I copy what others so eloquently and correctly already discussed and even SHOWED you?

And that's what we call a Motte-and-Bailey fallacy. You took a controversial and hard to defend position, and when you were challenged on it you retreat to a similar, but more easily defensible claim. Coincidentally, one that was never discussed before.

At least have the self-awareness to acknowledge what you are doing here. Or if you are aware of it, the honesty to admit it.