Jonathan, you cannot make the campaign fun to run over and over for many players

If the endgame can be fun then the campaign can be fun, simple as that. He is right to try to make the entire levelling proccess good and not just some chore to get through. If they can actually achieve it is another question altogether.

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Cpt_Katawa#5469 wrote:

Some people are asking for the campaign to be replaced with low level maps.

But that's literally the same thing except worse. You'd still be running same levels and killing the enemies, except it's randomized, thematically incoherent and not tailored to your level. the low level loot and league mechanics are still going to be worthless and the only difference is that you'd be having a less refined experience while leveling our character up.

And if you want to skip the leveling entirely, start the game at lvl 60 - no way, that would completely destroy the entire low level economy and the market of leveling gear and leveling uniques and the whole space where the noobs are having fun trading the 1ex gear.

One option is straight up bad, the other is destructive. Either way if you like killing the mobs in the maps you should like killing them in campaign too, it's the same fucking game.

I have to disagree. I think replacing campaign with low level maps is a great idea. It's not the same, because with maps, you exercise a lot of agency over what maps and mods you do, which areas you run, which content you go after. You have a lot of control, but in campaign you do not. If you can't beat jamanra, you are bricked. But if you can't beat arbiter, you can do other stuff and come back later. Plus, a low level map system would actually prepare the player for the end-game, as opposed to the campaign, which people make entirely different builds for (see rake builds).

Furthermore, even in PoE1, people begged for a delve alternative to campaign. Some people just want a randomized experience, not a story-centric one.

EDIT: I find it deeply ironic that PoE2 once set out to be more approachable for newcomers than PoE1, but now it's probably even more impenetrable than the first game. If you don't play a meta build, it's very difficult to get past act 2.

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justgivemeafuckingaccou#1081 wrote:

If the endgame can be fun then the campaign can be fun, simple as that.

I explained why this is factually incorrect in the original post, please read it an at least address the points there.

Imho the campaign currently overstays its welcome by 50% and there needs to be an alternative for alt characters in a season. For instance let them start at lvl 60 with appropriate passive skill points, player is responsible for starting gear/skills.

In 0.1 i would have rated the campaign 8/10. In 0.2 i would rate my experience 4/10. When the full campaign launches probably will be better again but only for that one season on first playthrough. I don't see how making players grind through the same singleplayer game essentialy over and over again will stick in the long run. POE1 only got away with it by slowly growing a niche audience over many years who just accepted it. If POE2 want to be more accesible and have larger playerbase then this will not work.

The only problem right now is that the campaign is incomplete. I was actually hating on the idea of redoing the campaign when 0.2.0 hit. Then it turns out it's actually fun. Specially since there are new things like balance changes and items and the such. But also because acts 1-3 are actually designed for those levels.

This is not true for Cruel act 1-3. That's the main issue right now. You have to repeat the campaign twice and the second time it's a lot more bare bones.

No one would be complaining about the campaign if it set the character up for proper success in the end game. The campaign rewards are solid with the bonus skill points, resistances etc. Give more of that.

Also, deterministic path to get good gear for the endgame. not the best, just good. Lord knows there's a frigging wide range for most modifiers in every item from magical to unique, just let the player choose from a curated list and give them that set of gear with all pieces at their lowest rolls after finishing the campaign. Less RNG, more determinism = WIN. But I know the "elites" of PoE will hate the idea since it's some kind of stupid point of pride to have things over the have-nots in this game.

Well that's the only way anyone not playing the game super seriously will be able to enjoy the game fully since most of the game is out of reach for most of the player base. Just give the gear. That level of stats will not allow casual players to beat the highest tiers and pinnacles of this game anyway. Stop being so stingy.

Is that what GGG wants? To gate keep the best content only for those who either grind hard or spend money to win? Because if that's how it is in PoE1 and I thought they wanted to change things in PoE2.

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ac429#4687 wrote:

If you can't beat jamanra, you are bricked. But if you can't beat arbiter, you can do other stuff and come back later.

What?
You can always farm a previous location and get some exalts, like Deshar, nothing is stopping you from running Deshar a couple times selling the loot and buying your gear.
The chancers are buying Rampart Tower Shield bases for 1ex each, plus since this is POE2 and not 1 you can just drop a better item and equip it or sell it for exalts and gear yourself up.

I don't see why after you've completed it once per league that you cant then choose a secret endless ledge mode and that when you hit a specific level you get the equivalent campaign quest rewards for that act.
This could be GGG's cow level

I would make 2 suggestions for bonuses for completing the campaign that only work while in the campaign.

1 Fog of war reveal being higher
2 Movement speed bonus that gets taken away at the same time as your resistance penalties

I feel the combination would increase the playthrough especially in those annoyingly large travel nodes in act 3 and god knows what act 4-6 will be like

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Cpt_Katawa#5469 wrote:

"

ac429#4687 wrote:

If you can't beat jamanra, you are bricked. But if you can't beat arbiter, you can do other stuff and come back later.

What?
You can always farm a previous location and get some exalts, like Deshar, nothing is stopping you from running Deshar a couple times selling the loot and buying your gear.
The chancers are buying Rampart Tower Shield bases for 1ex each, plus since this is POE2 and not 1 you can just drop a better item and equip it or sell it for exalts and gear yourself up.

Yeah, I did that in SSF. Running endless Deshar, how fun.

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eversorgod#5722 wrote:

I don't see why after you've completed it once per league that you cant then choose a secret endless ledge mode and that when you hit a specific level you get the equivalent campaign quest rewards for that act.
This could be GGG's cow level

Yeah, endless ledge would be amazing!

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eversorgod#5722 wrote:

I don't see why after you've completed it once per league that you cant then choose a secret endless ledge mode and that when you hit a specific level you get the equivalent campaign quest rewards for that act.
This could be GGG's cow level

I would make 2 suggestions for bonuses for completing the campaign that only work while in the campaign.

1 Fog of war reveal being higher
2 Movement speed bonus that gets taken away at the same time as your resistance penalties

I feel the combination would increase the playthrough especially in those annoyingly large travel nodes in act 3 and god knows what act 4-6 will be like

Bro 10 hours of endless ledge sounds like an absolute torture that's going to make the people hate the game.
And if it's even slightly faster than the campaign the are people still going to do it, burn out and quit. What a dogshit experience. GGG would want to increase the retention not reduce it.

Maybe they should add an endless ledge so that the people asking for it would shut up, but make it slower and less rewarding than campaign so that it doesn't ruin the game.