Max Life scaling is fucked.

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Kerchunk#7797 wrote:

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MathiasSoul#7397 wrote:

Can you really say there's nothing wrong with this, that we ought not to compare?

One thing I will say you ought to do is be a little bit more skeptical of the numbers you see on poe2.ninja and especially in PoB. Neither seem equipped at the moment to deal with PoE2 mechanics with any degree of accuracy.

Like, the in-game display says my Explosive Grenades & Shot w/ Ballista should be doing < 125k DPS together. PoB allows some tweaking to represent more realistic conditions so it says I'm at ~280k.

Here's my most recent KitM kill which appears to be just north of 650k...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loObiO279bI

PoB and poe2.ninja both completely ignore multiple grenades AND secondary explosions (PoB lets you up the 'count' but not accurately - 3 grenades and 90% secondary activate chance = 5.7 average explosions so I have to pick 5 or 6).

Neither offer any way to indicate that I'm short-circuiting the fuse timers on my explosive grenades with explosive shot. So they are estimating DPS on a 3s fuse timer instead of a 0.6s attack time (plus a little bit of projectile travel time that I reduce with projectile speed).

Meanwhile, they both give 100% credit to every single millisecond of cooldown reduction as if you are never going to do anything but fire every grenade you have as often as mathematically possible...

I know we're talking about defenses and not DPS but my point is these tools are not as sophisticated as people give them credit for. They're making insanely wild guesstimates and completely ignoring mechanics that are fundamental to certain builds.

It's safe to assume they might be doing something similar defensively given how rapidly things are changing.

No you're very right about being skeptical about the numbers and it not reflecting what your true EHP is in each given situation

EHP on PoE Ninja is essentially the sum of your max hits added together. My Warbringer's EHP is ACTUALLY significantly higher than what's showing, but that's more as a result of 616 Guard and 18% Life being recovered 5 times per second (Actually on the dot). I also straight up deal 4 million DPS.

However, the point still does stand that ES simply has far more tools as a defensive layer and the DPS factors are a completely separate issue, right? (A 29k Energy Shield standing on Desecrated Ground just chuckles throughout the entire degen, for example). In addition, any large hit in the game gets completely absorbed, save for Arbiter's guaranteed 1 shot

For Life Stack, that's quite literally impossible, and as our fellow Mash showcased, the difference in overall survivability is GRAND. I literally cannot save myself from a large hit, nor is encountering Desecrated Ground (Cuts through Guard and removes all forms of life recovery) even an option.

What PoB does is allow us a visual and numerical general calculation for reference, which is a far better scale to weigh on than countless recalls of anecdotal subjective experiences and complaints. It's far more viable to compare numbers than a small collection of hearsay

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LVSviral#3689 wrote:

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If you remove them but enhance the level scaling for life, both variants sit in the same place in disparity, but you remove the viability of Rathpith, Kaom's, Veil, and so on. That's all that that ends up doing.

?

I didn't say to kill life on uniques lol.

I feel like at this point you're taking the piss. I'm not sure I even want to commit to the labour of responding to these useless low effort responses that omit the entire point of the statements I'm making

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Irin77#4248 wrote:

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Sakanabi#6664 wrote:

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Evergrey#7535 wrote:

Meanwhile, people have over 13k Life.

And?

Yep...and others playing with 1,8k.

Great balance GGG!!!

Yes. Every build should have all the same things!!!

I quote myself. Your build does what you build it to do. And everything has a price.


I have 60k dps. The price is my life and mana.

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I feel like at this point you're taking the piss. I'm not sure I even want to commit to the labour of responding to these useless low effort responses that omit the entire point of the statements I'm making

I'll quote my original post here:

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Exceptions such as % life on amulets or special mods should still exist of course.

I didn't specifically say 'uniques', but i did say 'special mods'. If anything the uniques would be better since there wouldn't be an opporunity cost loss of a normal rare item having life in those same slots anyways.

Example: normal rare chest has 200 life. kaoms has 1500. Profit of 1300 life from using kaoms. If body armours couldn't roll life, but you got an extra 200 life from levels then kaoms would just be a pure 1500 profit.

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LVSviral#3689 wrote:

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I feel like at this point you're taking the piss. I'm not sure I even want to commit to the labour of responding to these useless low effort responses that omit the entire point of the statements I'm making

I'll quote my original post here:

"

Exceptions such as % life on amulets or special mods should still exist of course.

I didn't specifically say 'uniques', but i did say 'special mods'. If anything the uniques would be better since there wouldn't be an opporunity cost loss of a normal rare item having life in those same slots anyways.

Example: normal rare chest has 200 life. kaoms has 1500. Profit of 1300 life from using kaoms. If body armours couldn't roll life, but you got an extra 200 life from levels then kaoms would just be a pure 1500 profit.

Alright so I am gathering that you're quite serious, but that you never even thought to crunch these numbers which is fair when you're just going off a feeling and throwing a thought out there. I'll tag along and crunch all these numbers for you to showcase why it's firstly a nerf overall, secondly a nerf to life stacking, and thirdly why it's detrimental to the entire player community.

So here's the maximum possible life from affixes on each slot (Not including the % increases or corruptions that you're proposing can stay):

Rings:
143 x 2 (This is a base of 119 with 20% Life Mod quality from Flesh Catalyst)

Body Armour:
49 + 214

Shield:
189

Boots:
149

Gloves:
49 + 149

Amulet:
149

Belt:
174

Helmet:
49 + 174

Total Value overall:
1,631

^--- Sources of Affixes available through Craft of Exile - PoE 2

Next, we'll use a character at level 80 with no +Life modifiers as a base reference point:



For our next phase of preparation on this numerical breakdown, we'll take the leading Life Stack build and ascertain the available slots:



Important to note is that on this build, we have;

% Increased max HP on:

Helmet - 61%
Rings - 24% (12 x 2)
Belt - 12%
Body Armour - 6%
Amulet - 9%
Total Value = 112% (Base x 2.12)

________

Moving on to initiating your proposal of 200 more life on levels:

This means that in place of 1,126 HP and up to 29,000 Energy Shield at level 80, an ES stacking build will have 1,326 HP and potentially up to 29,000 Energy Shield

However, classes reliant on stacking defenses through Rares with Life Mods are at a net loss of 1,431 Life.

This means that while Evasion builds and Energy Shield builds see a simple gain of 200 Life, a level 80 Warrior with all T1 Life Mods gets shoved from 2,757 Life down to 1,326 Life

Going further:

The Life Stacking build utilising 112% Increased Max Life on their gear:

+200 from Levels
-Ring Life Mods (143 x 2 = 286)
-Boots Life Mods (149)
-Gloves Life Mods (49 + 149 = 198)

(The Gain from proposal) 200 x 2.12 = 424

(The Loss from proposal) 286 + 149 + 198 = 633 x 2.12 = 1342 (Rounded up from 1,341.96)

Total outcome from change:

1,342 - 424 = 918 total Life Reduction

________________

As you can see in the above, your proposal is a direct nerf across the board for both life stackers and standard Warrior builds that rely on Life Mods on gear.

Okay so let's go a little further and say "Okay but we can just bake the 1,631 into the levels and remove it from gear"

The outcome of that ends up similar to this:

This means that in place of 1,126 HP and up to 29,000 Energy Shield at level 80, an ES stacking build will have 1,326 HP and potentially up to 29,000 Energy Shield

While at the top end of life stacking, this would be a buff overall, it still won't address the standard build utilising Rares, nor would it eliminate the severe disparity between the two. Max Hit overall would still be substantially lower.

Thus, baking the increases into levels across the board on every class is not a viable answer to gearing as any class that builds Evasion can also comfortably build ES due to the substantial amount of hybrid nodes around the right and top side of the Atlas Passive tree.

These classes are the sole ones that would benefit overall from your proposal because the left and bottom sides only have a net total of 11% increased Maximum Life from Behemoth (3%), Unbending (3%), and Gem Enthusiast (5%).

With the flaws in your initial argument now laid bare through the numbers here, what would the actual details of your proposal be? What would it ACTUALLY look like?

I've read the whole thread and feels like this conversation derailed quite a bit from the original suggestion to a discussion about something else, but it makes more sense though

We went to armor vs energy shield discussion as usual because it's easier to think about a buff when you look at ES. The thing is, life/armor isn't weak, it's ES that is too strong

Armor is supposed to mitigate smaller hits which it does perfectly well right now, there's not many things that will one shot you in the game

ES is supposed to mitigate bigger hits, which it also does well, but it also does everything else better and that's probably where the problem is

If you're comparing both, then yea it looks like armor/life is weak, but imo it's where player power should be with an above average amount of investment

There's also a problem with the numbers that can be suggested for something like that. Evasion is supposed to be a mix of something that is able to do both while also doing neither, so what happens if you scale life enough to the point that there's no drawback to it? The same can be said for armor to a certain extent

The original post makes no sense. Doing that would completely negate life stacker builds, like on Blood Mage, which was purposefully designed to be an archetype.

I've never seen so much calcs/chat about nothing. OP has a point.

If a life build has 2500HP now with life mods on gear, they could remove the life from rare items and give it on level up instead. So at lvl95 or so you still end up with 2500HP but now you can stack much more evasion/armour.

.

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SaiyanZ#3112 wrote:

I've never seen so much calcs/chat about nothing. OP has a point.

If a life build has 2500HP now with life mods on gear, they could remove the life from rare items and give it on level up instead. So at lvl95 or so you still end up with 2500HP but now you can stack much more evasion/armour.

That makes no sense. That means every build has access to the same amount of life and completely eliminates life stacker builds as an archetype in the game.