Speed is too heavily rewarded

I just thought about this. If path of exile 2 is supposed to have more meaningful combat, a way to change this could be revamping the endgame. I mean when you think about it, if I run a map with the build I WANT to play, I will be missing out compared to people who simply don't mind using any particular build to delete masses upon masses of enemies. Simply because the way maps are being objective based causes players to naturally seek to clear that objective as fast as possible. But if the endgame was a different type of gamemode, then possibly it might change how players seek to use builds and skills. Right? Like I think it's that maps can be speed ran and so people are just going to speed run. It's our nature to get faster and faster. It's almost impossible to enjoy playing a something build that is thought out and not meta but the game is pushing you to only one type of direction. Because then you won't get the loot density per time you need to actually progress and keep up. So often the solution is just to not look at what other people are doing in an online game because it's going to make you dissatisfied with your build. IF you wanted to pick up this game and explore all the cool looking moves and stuff. I figured if maps were more of a boss rush, or just a set amount of time that limited the amount of enemies that came at you then it might actually be what the devs kinda were showing off. And people might not have to use these 1 button delete dash around the map builds. Something like a wave thing where you load up a map and it sends in waves. At a set speed. Maybe there are modifiers that can increase that speed but it should be limited to prevent people going ape and going more more more more more. And maybe there are multiple types of gamemodes including the zoomy ones maybe. And obviously these type of modes should have different amounts of rewards. And instead of more and more and more, people might think, how can I do this? How should I go about dealing with this particular boss? And actually engage with the insane amount of skills in the game because not every skill has to keep up if there's a set amount of enemies kinda steady flowing in. I can already tell this is gonna make people go bananas. But what if different builds actually excelled at different things? Like one build is really good at attrition so surving the long amount of waves is really rewarding or I dunno. One build is really good at something man. I'm just tired of seeing that I have to just do more damage or be faster. It's just an alternative of bandaiding skills over and over again when they will always either achieve what the game is pushing or not. So the game needs to push more different stuff. Cause right now it only pushes two things.

the game does not have meaningful combat, it never has, that was a marketing lie.

POE 2 is even easier than POE 1, it's insane.

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Rakie1337#5746 wrote:

the game does not have meaningful combat, it never has, that was a marketing lie.

POE 2 is even easier than POE 1, it's insane.

It definitely feels like a marketing lie. I just believe if they diversified their objective gameplay, it might actually allow that meaningful combat. I think if people didn't have to make those types of builds to achieve the same satisfaction of success, a lot of people probably wouldn't. That doesn't mean there aren't still going to be those types of people that want to obliterate hordes. Leave it in the game. It's very disrespectful of people's time developing builds like that but very rewarding to veterans of the game that understand the insane intricacies of all the stats. Just make something equally valuable to run that doesn't require you to kill everything as heavily to get things to kill things. And give it as an option in the game. Not only would it be inviting and give players choice but it would also show if the other playerbase are really enjoying the gameplay or if they are just enjoying the only semblance of familiarity presented to them. Who knows maybe they might just go for something else if they actually had the option to while still enjoying their loot high.

Its funny I was just doing a Simulacrum, I have a pretty sub-optimal build but I'm somehow surviving and I was thinking to myself as I was doing it - how the hell is this meaningful combat, I literally cannot see wtf is going on. I'm just holding down the mouse button and rolling and hoping for the best.

All the endgame mechanics involve hordes of monsters spawning on you at once, and you either delete them or they delete you. The idea that anyone would be using any kind of tactical strategic methodical combo gameplay at this point is completely at odds with the mechanics they put in. They require that you kill hordes fast but not only that, I can't even tell what is actually happening a lot of the time and not really able to think or react, just spam skill until its over.

The campaign and the endgame are two separate games, the only connection being you take your character from the first game into the second game. I don't dislike it but its a total contradiction, the endgame mechanics they delibrately chose to put in are pretty much all spamming turbo fast hordes at you.

It’s not quite clear what you mean by “meaningful combat.” Is that some concept you came up with yourself, and now you’re upset that things aren’t the way you imagined? What exactly is it supposed to be? Even in Elden Ring there are speedrunners, and in general, when people play through a game for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, N-th time, they tend to do it faster and faster. PoE is not Elden Ring and not a souls-like — it’s an action RPG. The essence of an action RPG is blowing up screens full of monsters. Sure, the path to that can be slow at first — dodging, rolling, having zero DPS — but it can’t stay like that forever. There has to be progress, you have to be able to become a god, otherwise what’s the point of items and upgrades?

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Rassomaxa69#5346 wrote:

It’s not quite clear what you mean by “meaningful combat.” Is that some concept you came up with yourself

Ask the devs, its a phrase they have used repeatedly and thats where it comes from. What do they mean by meaningful, engaging combat, and what did they mean by then putting in all the mechanics that insta spam hordes on crack on top of you, often times overlapping with other eg a breach in a delirium and then you walk into an abyss zone.. ain't nobody reacting to that in a meaningful engaging way. I don't even know whats going on, its just fog and particles and explosions. Its not actually a complaint, just a contradiction in what they said they wanted to make and what they actually made.

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Giamantis#6154 wrote:

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Rassomaxa69#5346 wrote:

It’s not quite clear what you mean by “meaningful combat.” Is that some concept you came up with yourself

Ask the devs, its a phrase they have used repeatedly and thats where it comes from. What do they mean by meaningful, engaging combat, and what did they mean by then putting in all the mechanics that insta spam hordes on crack on top of you, often times overlapping with other eg a breach in a delirium and then you walk into an abyss zone.. ain't nobody reacting to that in a meaningful engaging way. I don't even know whats going on, its just fog and particles and explosions. Its not actually a complaint, just a contradiction in what they said they wanted to make and what they actually made.

So they already made that kind of gameplay in the campaign and early endgame. After that it’s more monsters, more speed, a stronger character. The path goes from a weak character who has to dodge and roll to becoming a god. How exactly do you even imagine character progression in this kind of genre?

many lies have been told pre-release, maybe lies is the wrong word because the devs genuinely believed in their own words before coming to a realization.

Another really good on is that they unironically believed to release the game within 6 to 12 months, how can you seriously say 6 months and look at it currently, 1 new class in the whole year

I agree. I thought this game will be slower with dodges and rolls, well timed hits and blocks and deliberate skill rotations, like V-Rising. But this start to look like POE1 all over again very quickly after first couple zones. Running over everything and not looking back... Having twelve skill slots but using three. You either crush the boss in five seconds, or boss will crush you in the next five.

Almost 200 hours in, couple characters later, I am very much bored even before getting my 4th ascendancy and 80% of Atlas. All I do leap, leap and leap, taking drops from ground but straight disenchanting and selling all to NPC because drops has no value, even if it says (Tier 5), gold has no use, even uniques, it is not exciting.

If this will be very much the same of POE1, why did we even got the POE2? We could very well keep playing POE1.

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So they already made that kind of gameplay in the campaign and early endgame. After that it’s more monsters, more speed, a stronger character.

Like I said, two different games. And as OP is saying, it ultimately limits build choices to those that can deal with that. Its pushing you in a direction that is at odds with what they have said is their design vision for the game. Its not even a debate - literally every mechanic they put in for endgame leave no other choice but using something that deletes hordes, and quickly. There is no time for combos, setting up skills with other skills, reading or reacting to anything at that point. I don't know how it could be changed to be more meaningful or whatever, its just an observation, and general agreement with that OP is saying. I think what OP is suggesting is some other optional system or mechanic that is still challenging without necessarily being "spawn 1000 monsters on you at once" that would allow for "meaningful combat" to be viable and not simply devolve into a mess of things exploding.