Exp loss on death topics are getting out of hand.

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Anduvriel#4240 wrote:

First you claimed something and I called it untrue until provided proof. I stated that I would claim the opposite. You made the initial claim so it's on you to provide proof of that.

I just told you exactly in my post how an individual like yourself can do that, it's called poe.ninja and the answer is I am right, softcore has more build diversity than hardcore, thus increasing penalties for death does not lead to bigger build diversity. It's in fact the opposite.

What you meant with your claim was to say that without absolutely any penalty on death there wouldn't be any point in investing into any defense thus making a lot of stats obsolete. That is something extremely obvious as well as the fact that I don't really know any game that has no penalty for failure. Remember before you post that time is a very scarce resource in human lives that doesn't replenish nor can be bought.

First of all, if you decide to play HC, you are funneled into making your build tankier since death is the end of your character's journey in HC, 2nd you have already answered your own question and thus proof. We have the exp loss penalty and you already admitted that build diversity is big. For context, your reasoning actually missed the topic being discussed since HC's death and exp penalty loss are 2 very different kinds of rules and this is were your "optional" logic comes in.

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Anduvriel#4240 wrote:

If I am lying than tell me why I invested around 100 divines on my lvl 100 character to reach 120k eva and 10k es in the current league. I could have spent those resources to reach 300-450mln dps (thats around the ceiling) instead of my current 130mln dps. I am a boss killer trapper. I will repeat: i spent them after I reached lvl 100 and I am very glad I did.

Where is your proof that you just did it at 100? Is this "trust me bro" situation?

P.S. your evasion with everything up is 89,639 and not sure how many traps your throwing but lets leave your "130m" dps as "trust me bro"

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

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Bacon_Overlord#1834 wrote:

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

I am pretty sure GGG has a history of not giving a fuck about a vast majority of players, and thats why PoE is good, and why PoE 2 will be good. Xp penalty on death existed for years, and as someone who dies 50-100 times per league, it doesn't bother me at all. Fear not, everyone who doesn't like -10% xp on death (that must exist), one portal maps that punish bad builds or oneshots (that should exist kinda) can leave, and the game will be fine too. The long runback to bosses I believe they will fix when they introduce more checkpoints and teleport to checkpoints, so that will hopefully be gone.

You were right up until "and that's why"

No, that's why it's going to be a mid-game just like POE 1 was. The only reason that many people played POE 1 was the build diversity, the fact that it was F2P and a HUGE chunk of the people playing were farming bots.

We don't have build diversity in POE 2 yet. One can hope we will, but if they keep copy/pasting stuff from POE 1 we will have the EXACT SAME STUFF as we did in POE 1.

Not great.

Plus their lack of understanding that literally no other newer games have non-recoverable exp penalties and punishing mechanics for no other reason than "just because" is why this will be the same and end up with more bots than players for the first 3 weeks of every season.

Why can't people understand the purpose of XP loss? It didn't just pop into existence randomly. It has a purpose, the purpose is to gatekeep bad builds from level 100. Level 90 is enough for a build, builds aren't planned around level 100.
BTW PoE1's playerbase kept steadily growing for 10 years, calling the game "mid" is a lil bit delusional, mid games die in a couple. PoE 2 right now is a husk, 12/36 ascendancies, ~50% of gems, ~50% of weapons, raw skill tree. On release there will be build diversity.
Also I don't know what cosmic vision told you there is a bot problem, GGG uses server-side statistics to detect farming bots, if i remember correctly those bots then get no loot for killing mobs. There are farming bots in every game with RMT, its inescapable, but PoE definitely has less problems with bots than games like, lord have mercy, World of Warcraft.
Trading bots are fine, nobody cares about them. If they ever improve trading of non-currency items those bots will be gone too, but will they improve it? Time will tell.

Why do people assume that nobody understands a purpose of XP loss? The XP loss in poe 1 was not a big problem. I have gotten level 100 without issues.

I suggest that all advocated for EXP loss in this game, go and level to 100 before talking. As of today after 600+ hours of gametime there is exactly one person who is level 100 in the entire world, and the game had a playerbase that is 10 times higher than poe 1 ever had.

You guys are detached from reality answering your own questions in your own head.

It is either slow progression (exp scaling) or exp loss. Combining both creates an impassable slog. It is not about having good or bad build, there is literally no build that will hit level 100 in this game as it is now.

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

Why do people assume that nobody understands a purpose of XP loss? The XP loss in poe 1 was not a big problem. I have gotten level 100 without issues.

I suggest that all advocated for EXP loss in this game, go and level to 100 before talking. As of today after 600+ hours of gametime there is exactly one person who is level 100 in the entire world, and the game had a playerbase that is 10 times higher than poe 1 ever had.

You guys are detached from reality answering your own questions in your own head.

It is either slow progression (exp scaling) or exp loss. Combining both creates an impassable slog. It is not about having good or bad build, there is literally no build that will hit level 100 in this game as it is now.

maybe youre simply not supposed to hit lvl 100, and you dont need to be lvl 100 for anything. deal with it. this whole crying about not hitting lvl 100 is hillarious. who cares?

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Pl4t1numX#4325 wrote:

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

maybe youre simply not supposed to hit lvl 100, and you dont need to be lvl 100 for anything. deal with it. this whole crying about not hitting lvl 100 is hillarious. who cares?

The XP loss is bad game design at every level. It is designed to teach people to avoid challenging content.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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Pl4t1numX#4325 wrote:

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

maybe youre simply not supposed to hit lvl 100, and you dont need to be lvl 100 for anything. deal with it. this whole crying about not hitting lvl 100 is hillarious. who cares?

The XP loss is bad game design at every level. It is designed to teach people to avoid challenging content.

no its designed to tell people that their build sucks and they are not ready to go to even harder content. if you want it harder, get a better character. you are not supposed to get to lvl 100 with a shit character dying through maps.

then the design fails miserably since your average player will be discouraged and learns "I should not do this again, I lose time".

No one is going to make a new character after many hours diverting from what they want to do because they die, and if punishment for dying exists they will not experiment to fix the problem because that entails dying more... so they quit.
-1 player

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BK2710#6123 wrote:

then the design fails miserably since your average player will be discouraged and learns "I should not do this again, I lose time".

No one is going to make a new character after many hours diverting from what they want to do because they die, and if punishment for dying exists they will not experiment to fix the problem because that entails dying more... so they quit.
-1 player

so it be. if somebody cant progress any further and is not willing to put in the effort it takes to get further, i dont think the problem is on the game. at some point in the game, every single player is hitting a wall. its on the player to overcome that wall, its about risk and reward. its not on the game to delete the wall and the risk in order to get people to the rewards easily. if you dont like that, thats fine. but thats the way it is, and its good that way.

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Pl4t1numX#4325 wrote:

so it be. if somebody cant progress any further and is not willing to put in the effort it takes to get further, i dont think the problem is on the game. at some point in the game, every single player is hitting a wall. its on the player to overcome that wall, its about risk and reward. its not on the game to delete the wall and the risk in order to get people to the rewards easily. if you dont like that, thats fine. but thats the way it is, and its good that way.

The wall should not be taking away the player progression, leveling is a core aspect of character progression, but meeting a wall via difficult content. To begin with maps are not difficult but you die to some random unreactable scenario (or a frost projectile in delirium fog you cant see into freeze and death for example) and lose it all as a result. It feels unfair and as a game developer this is the worst case scenario.

Hitting a wall in content, see people struggling with sekhemas e.g, is something a player can overcome without losing their xp. They already get punished and told you are not good enough but by not even throwing them a bone you do not motivate someone to improve. There should be content within the highest tier maps, and then content after maps (entry limited dungeons + bosses and what not) where failure = losing the chance at it. It's not rocket science and it already exists, players voluntarily take on that challenge and with it accept the consequences of loss.
It's also not like the game kills you for being bad, you just get killed by the balance issues of "you did not kill enemies offscreen" which I highly doubt is intended design.
Regardless of cause though, it simply offers no net positive to the game. If a (non diehard arpg) player cannot achieve max they won't come back ever because they spend their time in other games where they have fun as the feeling of loss is among the worst you can invoke in a person. Some of the players would not reach 100 regardless due to the insane xp grind required to get it, and even if a bad player gets there they should never be able to clear the content intended for max level. This is also missing here anyway, level 100+ enemy content.

XP loss needs to go
On Death Effects at least reduced by 90 %
Ground effects as well
And some of these horrible Map Modifiers.
Player get 1 advantage and the monsters 3 - i mean WTF

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Pl4t1numX#4325 wrote:

so it be. if somebody cant progress any further and is not willing to put in the effort it takes to get further, i dont think the problem is on the game. at some point in the game, every single player is hitting a wall. its on the player to overcome that wall, its about risk and reward. its not on the game to delete the wall and the risk in order to get people to the rewards easily. if you dont like that, thats fine. but thats the way it is, and its good that way.

Past 83 it's no longer about "being able to progress further" and all about "farming the fuck out of normal enemies without getting killed by randomly spawned mechanics hiding inside masses of gods knows what kind of enemies".

If they can kill the bosses, then they've already good enough to level to 100.