Exp loss on death topics are getting out of hand.

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Bacon_Overlord#1834 wrote:

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

I am pretty sure GGG has a history of not giving a fuck about a vast majority of players, and thats why PoE is good, and why PoE 2 will be good. Xp penalty on death existed for years, and as someone who dies 50-100 times per league, it doesn't bother me at all. Fear not, everyone who doesn't like -10% xp on death (that must exist), one portal maps that punish bad builds or oneshots (that should exist kinda) can leave, and the game will be fine too. The long runback to bosses I believe they will fix when they introduce more checkpoints and teleport to checkpoints, so that will hopefully be gone.

You were right up until "and that's why"

No, that's why it's going to be a mid-game just like POE 1 was. The only reason that many people played POE 1 was the build diversity, the fact that it was F2P and a HUGE chunk of the people playing were farming bots.

We don't have build diversity in POE 2 yet. One can hope we will, but if they keep copy/pasting stuff from POE 1 we will have the EXACT SAME STUFF as we did in POE 1.

Not great.

Plus their lack of understanding that literally no other newer games have non-recoverable exp penalties and punishing mechanics for no other reason than "just because" is why this will be the same and end up with more bots than players for the first 3 weeks of every season.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

XP loss exists so that every fucking loser playing his hypothetical CI Deadeye with Sunder with 1k ES doesn't get level 100 for simply existing. Bad builds don't deserve level 100. You gotta deserve that level. Otherwise level 90 is enough to have a perfectly functional character.

Bad builds will still make to level 100 the same way good builds will - by doing easy content. Or they'll just buy a carry.

My personal belief is that GGG is going to sell "time savers", either a direct level 100 boost or XP buffs. The game design is just so blatantly geared toward time-wasting tedium that it's hard to imagine it isn't by design.

Oh, and if the game remains the same and GGG doesn't sell them - someone else will come in to fulfill that market need.

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Anduvriel#4240 wrote:

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iMirageX#4580 wrote:

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joakinjkm#5415 wrote:

I totally agree with the Anduvriel#4240 post. That's the point, I've spent 200hours playing with my monk and I reached 91 lvl, done T18 bosses for unlocking their points and now I'm in a point that invest time making Maps and dying and loosing all the EXP invested it's the worst feeling ever felt playing a game.
Then I quited the game and I'm waiting if they will change the EXP loss. If not, 200 hours invested in a 30$ game feels worth... but I can't understand what's the point of loosing EXP in a game.

So if you haven't read what I posted, exp loss has multiple implications and the most prominent is keeping builds diverse. If exp loss was remove and together with 1 portal on death, then the only thing that will matter is "DPS". If there is no consequences when you die, why build defense? You see how POE 2 will turn into a shallow game if that happens.

What people are seeing right now is just the immediate and do not think "what will this do when this is implemented?". The reasoning "then make another server", isn't really "feasible" unless GGG makes a POE 2 "Softcore (easy)" server, that is "if".

Are you sure about that claim? Playing a build with zero defense won't get you to far, will it? You will still have to redo the content, right? You will not gain any rewards, right? There are plenty of games without death penalty that have very good build diversity..

My claim is opposite to yours - I think that build diversity is killed by the death penalty far more than it would be killed by its lack. If I can die easily to stupid oneshot off screen and lose everything I put and some of what I already had which build will I choose? Any that I like? No, only the ones that let me survive as much as possible while dealing enough damage. Ultra top meta dps with the most broken packed defense layers the game has to offer. Why top dps - cause than it's far easier to cut something for even more defenses, easier to find items.

Isn't that exactly what is happening in poe hardcore? Where the death penalty is the biggest there can be? Have you ever compared build diversity between hardcore and softcore in a league? Which do you think has better? That is something you can actually check.

I will let you do it to prove your claim. Show us the proof that the more death penalties in poe the more build diversity we will see. Show us that there are more unique different skills and classes used by 100lvl hc characters than softcore ones in the ladder, its a pretty good sample of 10k chars. I don't know which one of us is right, but I am willing to agree to your claim if you can prove it.

Although I think you will not do it and just go claiming, " but but hc is its own thing" - yeah it's death penalties to the fullest by the definition - end of the line. You can't punish a player more than that (well maybe ggg could introduce one char per league to do hc*2). Jokes aside, I believe you are wrong on this topic and you are constantly omitting the extreme costs that the death penalty puts on the game. Look up my previous post in this thread. I am open for discussion.

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

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Bacon_Overlord#1834 wrote:

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

I am pretty sure GGG has a history of not giving a fuck about a vast majority of players, and thats why PoE is good, and why PoE 2 will be good. Xp penalty on death existed for years, and as someone who dies 50-100 times per league, it doesn't bother me at all. Fear not, everyone who doesn't like -10% xp on death (that must exist), one portal maps that punish bad builds or oneshots (that should exist kinda) can leave, and the game will be fine too. The long runback to bosses I believe they will fix when they introduce more checkpoints and teleport to checkpoints, so that will hopefully be gone.

You were right up until "and that's why"

No, that's why it's going to be a mid-game just like POE 1 was. The only reason that many people played POE 1 was the build diversity, the fact that it was F2P and a HUGE chunk of the people playing were farming bots.

We don't have build diversity in POE 2 yet. One can hope we will, but if they keep copy/pasting stuff from POE 1 we will have the EXACT SAME STUFF as we did in POE 1.

Not great.

Plus their lack of understanding that literally no other newer games have non-recoverable exp penalties and punishing mechanics for no other reason than "just because" is why this will be the same and end up with more bots than players for the first 3 weeks of every season.

Why can't people understand the purpose of XP loss? It didn't just pop into existence randomly. It has a purpose, the purpose is to gatekeep bad builds from level 100. Level 90 is enough for a build, builds aren't planned around level 100.
BTW PoE1's playerbase kept steadily growing for 10 years, calling the game "mid" is a lil bit delusional, mid games die in a couple. PoE 2 right now is a husk, 12/36 ascendancies, ~50% of gems, ~50% of weapons, raw skill tree. On release there will be build diversity.
Also I don't know what cosmic vision told you there is a bot problem, GGG uses server-side statistics to detect farming bots, if i remember correctly those bots then get no loot for killing mobs. There are farming bots in every game with RMT, its inescapable, but PoE definitely has less problems with bots than games like, lord have mercy, World of Warcraft.
Trading bots are fine, nobody cares about them. If they ever improve trading of non-currency items those bots will be gone too, but will they improve it? Time will tell.

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iMirageX#4580 wrote:

The proof the you wanted isn't something an individual can give you but if you think and observe carefully, there are already builds out there that deletes pinnacle bosses in less than 5 seconds and they "put" a bit of defense/ehp to actually not die in one flick. Now if you cannot see what your "removal" of penalty is going to entail if builds like this exist now, then you may have a problem. In the first place, asking someone to provide proof when you yourself don't provide one is kinda rude? Where is your proof that build diversity will broaden when exp penalty is removed? Aren't you thinking backwards? Why would you build defense if dying doesn't have consequences much less have 6 portals? You're gonna say "Oh, no I will still build defense even if exp loss was removed" like, who are you lying too?

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BK2710#6123 wrote:

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iMirageX#4580 wrote:

The proof the you wanted isn't something an individual can give you but if you think and observe carefully, there are already builds out there that deletes pinnacle bosses in less than 5 seconds and they "put" a bit of defense/ehp to actually not die in one flick. Now if you cannot see what your "removal" of penalty is going to entail if builds like this exist now, then you may have a problem. In the first place, asking someone to provide proof when you yourself don't provide one is kinda rude? Where is your proof that build diversity will broaden when exp penalty is removed? Aren't you thinking backwards? Why would you build defense if dying doesn't have consequences much less have 6 portals? You're gonna say "Oh, no I will still build defense even if exp loss was removed" like, who are you lying too?

That ones very easy, I cannot believe you would make your own argument so weak. What's the most popular class again in the genre? Ah yes, Paladin.
What do (many) people do (and think) when they think of this class?
Dude in heavy armor who tanks it all and smacks people with divine lightning.
They imagine running around in a Shield and repelling all attacks, a tank. It fulfills a fantasy, people want to do that in an action ROLE PLAYING game. Fulfill their own fantasy.
People like beefy builds because it fulfills a fantasy and is fun.
Same reason some like summoners whether they are bad or not.
You are so distanced from reality it is shocking sometimes, play other games and interact with people so you can understand how the average person operates because this is becoming an obstacle to your own perception of reality.

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BK2710#6123 wrote:

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iMirageX#4580 wrote:

The proof the you wanted isn't something an individual can give you but if you think and observe carefully, there are already builds out there that deletes pinnacle bosses in less than 5 seconds and they "put" a bit of defense/ehp to actually not die in one flick. Now if you cannot see what your "removal" of penalty is going to entail if builds like this exist now, then you may have a problem. In the first place, asking someone to provide proof when you yourself don't provide one is kinda rude? Where is your proof that build diversity will broaden when exp penalty is removed? Aren't you thinking backwards? Why would you build defense if dying doesn't have consequences much less have 6 portals? You're gonna say "Oh, no I will still build defense even if exp loss was removed" like, who are you lying too?

That ones very easy, I cannot believe you would make your own argument so weak. What's the most popular class again in the genre? Ah yes, Paladin.
What do (many) people do (and think) when they think of this class?
Dude in heavy armor who tanks it all and smacks people with divine lightning.
They imagine running around in a Shield and repelling all attacks, a tank. It fulfills a fantasy, people want to do that in an action ROLE PLAYING game. Fulfill their own fantasy.
People like beefy builds because it fulfills a fantasy and is fun.
Same reason some like summoners whether they are bad or not.
You are so distanced from reality it is shocking sometimes, play other games and interact with people so you can understand how the average person operates because this is becoming an obstacle to your own perception of reality.

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iMirageX#4580 wrote:

The proof the you wanted isn't something an individual can give you but if you think and observe carefully, there are already builds out there that deletes pinnacle bosses in less than 5 seconds and they "put" a bit of defense/ehp to actually not die in one flick. Now if you cannot see what your "removal" of penalty is going to entail if builds like this exist now, then you may have a problem. In the first place, asking someone to provide proof when you yourself don't provide one is kinda rude? Where is your proof that build diversity will broaden when exp penalty is removed? Aren't you thinking backwards? Why would you build defense if dying doesn't have consequences much less have 6 portals? You're gonna say "Oh, no I will still build defense even if exp loss was removed" like, who are you lying too?

I know that there are a lot of games that do not have penalty when dying, those games are made that way, POE is made this way, what's there to compare?

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BK2710#6123 wrote:

Why can't people understand the purpose of XP loss? It didn't just pop into existence randomly.